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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
 Posted - 03/20/2013 : 09:51:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by thumbstruck
One of the joys in jamming with others is to hear the differences.
And those differences cause you to adjust your playing in order to blend better.
How I play with thumbstruck & slipry1 is now noticeably different from how I play with no`eau - that was not the case two years ago. Their individual styles of playing, along with their recommendations as to what they would like me to try, have caused me to make tweaks to my playing; then, I bring those tweaks to a gig with our halau and Kumu says "oh, you getting better!" Then I learn a new song with the halau, I bring it to kanikapila one day and the cycle keeps turning.
KonaBob already said it in a different way: "Hang out with good musicians, and try to keep up." |
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TerryLiberty
Lokahi
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2013 : 10:18:40 AM
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quote:
...If a novice where to look at this thread, I would suggest that while learning there favourite piece in a linear fashion, they should examine the chord progression and understand how the harmonies within the chords work. For example, an augumented chord has a sharp 5th. You have to know how chords are built to improvise.
Adam: True enough. I'm one of those novices that learns slack key mele in a linear fashion. From my other musical life in the jazz world it's different. There, all lead sheets have chord designations, sometimes four changes in one measure. In the couple of years I've looked at slack key music, I've never seen the underlying chords notated anywhere. How do people pick up on the harmonies that underly the songs? Good ear? Analysis of the notes being used? I'd love to move closer to understanding the structure of the pieces I play but it sure isn't written anywhere or maybe I'm just spoiled for jazz lead sheets.
Any thoughts? |
Terry
Olympia, WA
Forever a haumana |
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Adam Troy
Akahai
Australia
58 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2013 : 5:46:58 PM
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T L, as a jazz musician I take it you have a good idea of how music works. I don’t play slack key, though I have worked up a couple tunes like ‘Mauna Loa’ for instance. The slack key repertoire seems to be built on older Hawaiian songs played as instrumentals in the finger picking techniques used elsewhere also. General interest in Slack Key outside of Hawaii is probably a lot younger than Kika Kila steel guitar; I have seen published methods for Hawaiian Steel from before World War One.
Therefore, it seems first of all a familiarity with those old songs, like ‘He Aloha No O Honolulu’ for example, is necessary. But most of those tunes are harmonically simple. I would have to examine what the great players favour in their right hand technique to comment further.
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Konabob
`Olu`olu
USA
928 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2013 : 8:42:33 PM
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I may be totally full of it, but I have always noticed that the musicians that I admire for spontaneity and creativity tend to be the osmosis types. Led Ka'apana, for example is a monster of a musician, and he constantly reminds people that his Uncle Fred taught him by saying "jus press". (don't try to figure it out in your head, just play and try to keep up with us old guys)
One thing I have seen time and again is that people who fear making mistakes in public never get very far in music. Fear of mistakes has to be replaced with the desire to get on with it, and the joy of "wow, did you hear what I just pulled off?".
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Konabob's Walkingbass - http://www.konawalkingbass.com
Taropatch Steel - http://www.konaweb.com/konabob/
YouTube - http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=Konabob2+Walkingbass |
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2013 : 11:50:53 PM
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Terry, I think that it maybe more important at this point to develop your ears (ear training, no lifting involved and you don't have to go to music school for this) rather than learning how to play a slack key piece in a linear mode, take some time out and listen to a lot of Hawaiian music (Pandora is free). Then, as a mental exercise pick out a song that you like. Look for patterns and schemes in the music. Is it composed of all verses? Or are there some choruses and bridges separating the verses? How many chords are used? What kind of chords are used? Are there any chord inversions? What is the tempo, rhythm or overall feel of the piece? Is it rubato, a hula rhythm, fox trot, latino, fado, New Orleans jazz, swing, rock, new age, etc.? Being a good player also means being a good listener.
I was taught that there only two ways of performing a song; the song was either arranged (perform every note as it was written) or the song was improvised (where you just had to come close). I always take the later approach, not only because I am not the best sight reader, but because I like the way it feels to simply recreate a story with my own voice and fingers. In order to improvise you have to know the chords and changes. One of the simplest ways of learning chord inversions and how to use passing notes is by breaking up the neck into three sections and identifying the I-II-IV-V7 chords in each section. What this does is force you to find the tonal centers in each section. Once you become competent, you can then move vertically or horizontally (depending on the tuning) between each section. Memorize the two note chords (slant and barre technique) And after a while you don't think about it. I believe that slack key isn't as hard as some of you may think.
In brief, most of the songs found in slack key repertoire are strophic (based upon the couplet) and come from the hula repertoire. In particular, the hula ku‘i. The strophic song form is AAAA -- where each verse equals A. It is the most popular song form in Hawaiian music and hula. These are always in duple time (2/4, 4/4 etc) and usually incorporate a simple chords (I-V7, I-IV-V7, I-II-IV-V7) over an alternating or pedal bass. All of the final verses end with Haina ia mai …. One small note, Wahine tunings are predominantly I-V7 and played for the most part with hula ku‘i songs, not so much with through composed songs.
In Hawaiian music, through composed music is all music that is not in the hula ku‘i form. Forty years ago through composed pieces for slack key were not common. However, times have changed. When a through composed song is arranged for slack key it can be a very moving. The song forms are a little more varied, the most common being ABAB. Sometimes a bridge will be included. Duple time is more common, but there are quite a few waltzes in Hawaiian music. The chord progression and harmonic structure can be a little more dynamic but not necessarily so. I would write more but it's getting near midnight.
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Adam Troy
Akahai
Australia
58 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 03:01:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Peter Medeiros
One of the simplest ways of learning chord inversions and how to use passing notes is by breaking up the neck into three sections and identifying the I-II-IV-V7 chords in each section. What this does is force you to find the tonal centers in each section. Once you become competent, you can then move vertically or horizontally (depending on the tuning) between each section. Memorize the two note chords (slant and barre technique) And after a while you don't think about it. I believe that slack key isn't as hard as some of you may think.
Now, this is the good stuff. Thanks Peter.
Konabob, I am sure the osmosis method works for some people. But I don't think it can be relied upon. It didn't work for Charlie Parker. He totally bombed when he tried to sit in at the High Hat Club in Kansas City. He went home and wept before his mother, and is remembered to have said: "Its got to be figured out some kind of way . . ." |
Edited by - Adam Troy on 03/21/2013 03:16:49 AM |
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TerryLiberty
Lokahi
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 04:03:01 AM
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Peter:
Many thanks for your willingness to help a novice. There's much to chew on here and you can bet I'll be studying your words for a while. I suspect I'm really in need of a kupuna (or a "bunch of old guys" as Konabob puts it) but they're kinda rare in Olympia, Washington. The consolation is that the music is so beautiful that it touches me deeply and draws me to learn more.
Aloha. |
Terry
Olympia, WA
Forever a haumana |
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TerryLiberty
Lokahi
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 04:08:52 AM
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Peter:
One other thought: Short of a kupuna, would your book be a good place for me to find out more?
Mahalo. |
Terry
Olympia, WA
Forever a haumana |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 07:32:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by TerryLiberty
Peter:
One other thought: Short of a kupuna, would your book be a good place for me to find out more?
Mahalo.
IMHO - Oh, yes! |
keaka |
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ukrazy
Akahai
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 08:47:55 AM
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The best advice I've gotten was from Kimo Hussey. He said to put away the tab until you learn to play. He taught a couple of slack key guitar sessions at a music camp I attended. I hadn't been playing for very long, but was getting pretty good at some of Ozzie's songs, and a couple of others. He had us just picking harmony over the chords while he played a little melody and sang. There was only 3 of us in the class and we were all tab bound players. We were all pretty befuddled and struggled with chords. I came home realizing I didn't know squat about slack key. I just knew little black marks on a sheet of paper. I started right away learning the chords and the inversions. I'm still working on it, but have come a long way. I can get along pretty well in the common Hawaiian music keys. I used to think taropatch was very limited but the deeper I go, the more I seem to find. I've used chord charts and online chord generators, but the way I learn the most is on a drawn out fret board chart and finding chords by the spelling.
I don't have the luxury of playing with other people very often, so that leaves me the luxury of playing what I like. I've played ukulele and sang hula tunes for several years, so that is what I work on in slack key. With the lyrics in my head and knowing the fret board pretty well, it doesn't take too long to come up with a nice sounding arrangment. At least to my liking. I like using the "He Mele Aloha" songbook, and get a lot of inspiration from watching Fran G's video's.
Some of my most enjoyable times with the guitar is just playing no particular thing. Sometimes in a noodleing session, some pretty cool stuff comes up. The other day I played something that sounded like part of Roger Miller's "King Of The Road". Off I went and probably spent 1/2 an hour coming up with an arrangment. Today I probably couldn't duplicate it but I don't care. It just fit my mood at the time. |
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ukrazy
Akahai
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 12:33:41 PM
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| I hope I didn't come off sounding anti-tab. Had it not been for Ozzie's book I never would have started (trying) to play slack key, and I use bits and pieces of tab learned material in most of what I play. I often use Ozzie's "Manuela Boy" note for note as a warm up song for my fingers and my brain. |
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2013 : 12:55:17 AM
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Yes, Terry,
My book can help. It's late, and I don't know if I should be writing at this hour, but my first text -- Hawaiian Slack Key: A Lifetime of Study - The Methodology -- does cover fingering and chord movement through example. It's a compilation of most what I've been teaching for the last forty years.
Book learning is one thing and learning one on one or within a group context is different. We each learn at our own pace. The learning dynamic when you are in a performance situation or a group, such as a class or a jam session or even a gig is much more intense. The immediacy of the situation demands that you respond appropriately whether you are prepared or not. A lot of musicians -- professionals and amateurs -- take the time to woodshed and hone their skill set so that they are prepared for whatever the musical situation might demand. The amount of time spent wood shedding depends on your finances, your view on entertainment as a vocation or an avocation, and if you really listened to your parents when they said "don't go into music."
Try, if you can, to meet with the guy's up at Neej's in Seattle they meet at least once a month. And then there is Slippery 1, Thumbstruck or Noeau they can show you. They are real old guys. All you got to do is ax.
If that doesn't seem like it's possible, then I can say that on my end long distance teaching is happening. Starting in April I will be using Skype to teach long distance from home. Each lesson will be limited to thirty minutes. Although I prefer Apple's Facetime, Skype is readily available for PC users. I have used Skype for the past five years to talk long distance with my kid when she was going to NYU. I have also used it for instruction and conference calls at UH where there is a lot of bandwidth.
There are several caveates to using Skype and Facetime from home that are beyond my control. Whenever long distance communications are utilized, in particular video, the participants or shall I say the end users are at the mercy of the bandwidth available. The quality of the video may deteriorate due to several factors where either the computer, web camera or router do not meet specs; the internet carrier's bandwidth is limited because too many users are on line at high peak usage hours. Then there are other factors such as the environment. The available lighting near the computer may not provide enough illumination, or background noise may interfere with the lesson. I live right next to St. Mark's School playground, so there is the ambiance of five to twelve year olds during recess, lunch and for a little while after school. Anyway that is a possible alternative.
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Edited by - Peter Medeiros on 03/22/2013 07:34:38 AM |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2013 : 09:36:11 AM
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| I've been taking Skpe lessons from Alan Akaka since I got back from Oahu last May. If you pay for the full duplex version, there's no time delay, but who can afford that? The only drawback to half duplex is the approximately 4 second delay, which prevents the playing of duets. However, it DOES permit lessons from someone over 1000 mailes away. I recommend them. |
keaka |
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TerryLiberty
Lokahi
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2013 : 09:45:26 AM
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Peter:
Another late night writing session! Many thanks for spending the time to share your thoughts. I'm gathering that there are four main ways to learn music 1.) From books and tabs, 2.) from knowledgable teachers, 3.) from in-the-moment performing with others and 4.) The woodshed. I also gather that all are important. After some travel in the next month or so I need to decide how much of each I can commit to with the understanding that this isn't a profession for me but that it is a passion. You also remind me that some highly skilled "old hands" are available north of here in King County or via Skype.
I appreciate your willingness to counsel a sudent with a love for the music and lot of questions.
Jack: Thanks so much for your endorsement of remote learning.
Mahalo to both of you. |
Terry
Olympia, WA
Forever a haumana |
Edited by - TerryLiberty on 03/22/2013 09:47:01 AM |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2013 : 1:01:21 PM
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| Eh, Terry. You should come up Seattle way and jam with us! Auntie Jean Smith, "neej" on TP, has a kanekapila 1st & 3rd Saturdays, which inludes an ono potluck (see Seattle Experiment in the kanekapila section here), the second Saturday Sapm n' Jam 9-noon at the Kona Kitchen on the corner of NE85th and 5th Ave NE. We'll be hangin' out and jammin' at Folklife, and Da Oddah Guyz (me, thumbstruck, retro, no'eau, falsetto2002, and others) are playing 11:40 - 12:10 Saturday on the Fisher Green stage. It'll be good to meet you. btw, I'll be in Hawaii from 4/2 to 5/5, so I won't be around until May. |
keaka |
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How Do You Learn?
