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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
 Posted - 01/11/2010 : 2:46:27 PM
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Aloha Kakou,
I have had this nagging sensation for some years now that I don't really know what I'm doing when it comes to a mixer, amplifier, and digital audio effects. This has been brought to my attention by squeals, pops, and odd sounds when I'm on the board or when I am performing. Do any of you have a good resource for learning how to;
(1) Equalize a room by guess (is 60 Hz and multiples a good rule of thumb?)
(2) Equalize a room using a laptop and the amplifier/mixer in the room you will perform in
(3) What is FBQ?
(4) What is XPQ?
(5) We normally hear reverberations and a "dry" sound feels unnatural. When do you add reverb to create a more comfortable sound?
(6) What is the difference between small room, big room, chapel, and cathedral digital effects?
(7) What are "ambience" effects and when would it be good to use them?
(8) When would one use flanger, chorus and other effects?
(9) What is AFL and PFL?
(10) When should I use Low Cut?
(11) When the vocalist states they want a "fatter" sound, what does that mean and how do you do it? Same for "it sounds tinny"?
Bottom line is where can I learn how to create an enjoyable sound experience -- assuming the fingers, guitar, and voice are inputing one?
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E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2010 : 7:00:06 PM
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| Dog - where are ya? Got someone here who could really use your expertise... |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2010 : 08:04:12 AM
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Mika ele,
I gleaned from you first post that you wanted links to resources to get info, not just a list of answers to your example questions. That would be easy enough, but you want to be taught to fish, or at least where to look for them.
In addition to the above links, there are also the online magazine sites that have lots of info in their archives, such as:
http://www.soundonsound.com/
S.O.S. Magazine
http://prosoundweb.com/
(these folks are constantly having live sound discussions and have a forum for such)
http://www.livesoundint.com/
(I have no experience with this one)
You might have to subscribe to one of these mags to get full and timely info, and SOS is definitely worth the sub (even though it is a Limey publication).
Good basic recording tech site, with an anachronistic name:
http://www.tapeop.com/
and for people who like to endlessly discuss audio Gear:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/
I also remember that there is a Database for CCRMA (Stanford U.) that has lots of audio info. However, unless you are comfortable with DSP coding and higher math, most of it may not be understandable:
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/GlobalJOSIndex.html
Another good audio theory and coding site:
http://www.musicdsp.org/
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 01/12/2010 09:58:43 AM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2010 : 12:28:46 PM
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Please don't take this to be smart *ss answer, but the answer to the bulk of your questions can be summed up in a single phrase: "When it sounds good."
To whit: you add ambience when it sounds good, you add the kind of ambience thats sounds good, you use chorus, delay, etc when they sound good, you engage a low cut filter when it sounds good... I think you get the idea.
How do you learn if it sounds good? By listening.
Contrary to what some people may think, "engineering" (in the sense of mixing for live sound or recording) is really an art and not a science. You cannot do it by memorizing a bunch of tips and tricks. Ya gotta listen to what happens when ya twist those knobs, and then remember what ya did so ya can do it again... or avoid it if you goofed.
Other than that; many of your mixer questions can be answered simply by reading the manual (mackie manuals are great sources of info.)
Follow up Lawrence's leads. Also look for some very simple tutorials at Harmony Central.
I might also add a plug for my book: Getting Started in Computer Music--- it has quite a bit of simple, practical info on mics, mixers, effects, etc. Hard to find, though.
Oh--
quote:
(6) What is the difference between small room, big room, chapel, and cathedral digital effects?
One sounds like a small room, one like a big room, one like a chapel, and one like a cathedral. Sorry. 
Notice that each "room" is progressively larger? What do things sound like played in progressively larger rooms? Where would you rather hear a solo guitar? Pipe organ? Massed choir? Banjo?????
That's what I mean by "listening & remembering." |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2010 : 2:22:32 PM
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| All the book larnin' in the world ain't no substitute for real-world experience, is it? That includes disastrous screw-ups; I've saved a number of mine over the years, and have been pleased that I could revisit and salvage a few thanks to digital audio technology. (Whaddya mean the phase was flipped for the first ten minutes of the live broadcast...?) |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
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ricdoug
`Olu`olu
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2010 : 5:31:28 PM
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A good monitor system helps those on stage hear what they are doing and they naturally adjust their distances from the microphones and adjust their instrument amps accordingly. When the musicians on stage are happy with the monitor mix, your next job is to get the mix right throughout the rest of the venue. In the Ocean House, we put one of the P.A. speakers 20 feet right of the stage. That allows similar coverage throught the entire ballroom. No monitors are used, due to direction from the conductor - it does not allow him to hear audience input. Most of the other controls, just play with them and see what they do. When there's a lack of a sound engineer, I prefer a box mixer on the stage. Once the monitor mix is dialed in, just feed the signal to the mains. I run mono for mains and monitor in that setup so it's the same around the venue. Since I prefer performing onstage, I rarely mix from a mixing board and snake. Have you ever noticed how many different ideas are voiced to you about the perfect sound when you're mixing? It can take thick skin sometimes. A good friend, Mike Adams of Sound Image in Escondido (he wasJimmy Buffet's sound engineer for 18 years on the road) told me he would put his hand over the control when someone was giving him "sound advice" and simulate turning it up/down while asking "does that sound better or should I turn it up/down a little more?". 9 times out of 10 that satisfied them, even though nothing was really changed. I'm going to the NAMM show with Quiet Voice out of Fallbrook. I'll ask Jon Bart if you can hang out with him at a gig. He's a good friend from the competitive shooting community that makes his living off sound installations and sound reinforcement. He's in our "young" age group too. LOL! There's a Hawaiian themed production in Fallbrook at the end of this month he's been asked to do the enginerring for. Here's Jon's website:
http://quietvoiceaudio.homestead.com/qva1.html
He services over 500 of the same type of venue that you mix, Skipper. Ric |
It's easier to ask for forgiveness, than permission! |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2010 : 7:35:59 PM
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Now that we are getting a little bit jolly...
AFL = After fader listen
PFL = Pre fader listen
FBQ is a Berhinger "Marketing term" for their feedback supression algo.
and...
XPQ is an electronica band - What the heck??? 
One nice thing about some of the online forums I listed above is that they are full of "real world experience". However, if you do not understand the basic physics of the audio and electronics that you have to deal with then a lot of "real world experience" may be useless. It is like if you do not understand the basic principle of gravity then even with lots of experience you may one day step off the top of a ten story building and expect NOT to fall. I have met dozens of "sound personell" who professed that they understood how the mixers and other gear worked but did not, and when push came to shove were unable to figure out and fix real time problems.
So, surprise, surprise, you need a mix of both theory and practice (does that seem familiar).
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 01/13/2010 07:32:36 AM |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2010 : 8:01:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fran Guidry
It doesn't hurt to have enough book larnin' to know what gain staging, phantom power, cardioid, and plenty of other terms mean and how they apply to the job.
Indeed - ya gotta have the foundation, but Mark also noted that it's a combination of education and experience that makes it work.
And if you don't know about things like phantom power, I know some microphones that I will NOT put in your hands... |
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Trev
Lokahi
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 02:45:16 AM
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SOS is definitely worth the sub (even though it is a Limey publication).
Good heavens, are you sure? The 'Limey's' accidentally produced something good? Extraordinary! |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 07:25:54 AM
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Mark,
I truly appreciate your comments about "listening" to the effect that you are implementing and determining if it sounds good. However, it is easier to listen for something specifically if you have an idea of what you are listening for. For example, I can look all I want at a wetlands and search for a Heron, but if I have no idea what one looks like I will assume every bird I see can be a Heron. I can have a sound system all set up with no feedback and the performers smiling, but when I select big room or chapel for reverb it usually sounds the same and they don't notice a change either. I'm listening for something, don't notice a change, and don't know if I need to walk around the room to see if it can be detected somewhere other than my vantage point. And to top things off, they usually "look at you funny" when they are practicing and you go flipping switches and adding effects to learn what they do and listen for the effect.
Lawrence,
Thank you for the links. I'm looking through them now. One forlearned is one forearmed.
Ric,
I'll see you after NAMM and we can chat -- Mahalo Leatherneck! Are you doing sound for Jeff Peterson and Amy at the Fallbrook Golf Club next Monday and Tuesday?
I do work with a Behringer mixer at one location and have read the manual (more of a button pushers guide). But like other manuals, the writers assume the reader has the same level of background knowledge and much that is not explained is assumed to be understood. The whole section on digital effects simply says you can select from the array of the 24-bit digital effects processor. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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Allen M Cary
Lokahi
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 08:20:33 AM
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Aloha Mika ele, Aloha Kakou,
I'm kinda like you with the sound mixing. Sometimes I can hear the differnce and often, not. It can be subtle, that's for sure. I finally mixed a decent CD using Mark's method--I stopped diddling when it sounded good. Took quite a few iterations though. One thing's for sure about a lot of these sound engineering terms (eg AFL, PFL, FBQ, etc); once you know what they mean, you still don't know what they mean!
Aloha and mahalo for the advice,
Allen |
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ricdoug
`Olu`olu
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 08:39:19 AM
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Skipper, my friend Jon Bart of Quiet Voice was asked to run the sound by Jim Marabotto. Jon's a lifetime pro with a vast portfolio of experience. I doubt I'll make that show, due to work restrictions. Just walk up to Jon and introduce yourself. That's Jon on the left, so you'll recognize him, at a field target (air rifle) match:
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It's easier to ask for forgiveness, than permission! |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 09:45:16 AM
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Mike-
I never said you don't need to have a bit of book larnin'-- quite the opposite. I told you to follow up on Lawrence's leads, and to check out Harmony Central. You can also learn a great deal from Sweetwater.com's "Words of the day" archives.
I also suggested you locate my book to learn about how a mixer works, which mic to use when, and basic info on digital effects. That's a lot of studying to do.
But I will stand by my comment that you need to listen--- and to learn from what you do.
Did I say that you should experiment at the gig? No, I did not. I assumed you'd take the suggestion of turning knobs and hearing what they do as a learning & practice exercise. And, like all practice, you do that on your own time. Invite a friend over (beer helps), set up the system, and try stuff out.
If you can't hear the difference between a "Small Room" and a "Cathedral" 'verb, either your FX program sucks (the usual case... sorry, but that's why the Big Dogs use real tools), or, maybe you just haven't spent enough time on it. It's like music-- you probably couldn't tell the difference between a major and a minor chord when you first started to play.
Above all-- It takes time. None of this stuff happens over night.
Lawrence, Dave or I could write out answers every single one of the questions you asked (save the ones about FBQ & XPQ, which I suspect are Behringer-speak) but it would do you absolutely no good without some hands- and ears- on practice.
However, you have given me an idea for a class at next June's Aloha Camp: "Live sound for musicians."
Good luck... and trust the Force.
BTW: The heron's the really big one standing in the marsh. And all the reading in the world won't prepare you for the majesty of a large heron rookery. |
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ricdoug
`Olu`olu
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 10:38:33 AM
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Here's my method for equalizing a room. I don't have white noise generators and other gear
like that. This works for me:
Start with the EQ flat. Have all the microphones (turned on) and gear on stage. Turn up the
master volume, then each microphone volume until it starts to feedback and then back of
the micriophone volume below the feedback level. Do this with each microphone until all are
adjusted. Next, turn up the master volume until it starts to feedback and "notch" out the
feedback with the equalizer controls. Turn the master volume down.Now, have the band play
and sing something steady like a 12 bar blues ditty and slowly bring the master volume up.
From here, lower the volume on the channels that are too loud and EQ each channel for the
right sound until all channels are balanced. Stop the playing and turn up the master volume
until it starts to feedback and do minute adjustments to the main EQ to notch out the
offending feedback frequency again. You are now balanced for an empty room, but will
have eliminated most of the initial headaches of the nasty feedback problems as the room
fills up. Then you will have to tweak the controls as you go.
The monitors are adjusted in a similar fashion, except that there are usually no individual
EQ controls for each channel. Just a volume control. Get the bands input on the stage
balance, as you will not be hearing what they're hearing on stage. Ideally, you'd have a
separate soundperson mixing the monitors at the stage. |
It's easier to ask for forgiveness, than permission! |
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Digital Audio Effects
