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alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
 Posted - 02/07/2010 : 05:06:11 AM
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Aloha!
I going make this kinda wikiwiki cuz I still get choke books fo read... sheesh!
Do you think that songwriters/recording artists use small parts of songs that have already been written and recorded in their own work without even realizing it, or do you think they draw their inspiration from songs that have already been put out sometimes? Maybe a little of both? You don't just hear stealing in Hawaiian music; you you hear it in every kind of music out there.
For example: am I the only one on here who discovered that the notes of the last line of "I'm a Little Teapot" (tip me over and pour me out) are exactly identical to the notes of the last line of the Jeopardy theme song?
Also, I don't know how much jazz my taropatch 'ohana listens to, but if you listen to Count Basie's "One O'clock Jump," you will hear a small part that sounds like the first line of John Almeida's "A'oia." Here's "One O'clock Jump" to prove it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQi4jglT0Vo
And while I was listening to the oldies station on the radio, I could've sworn I heard a saxophone solo that sounded like "Wahine Ilikea"...
What is the future of the music scene? Is everything eventually gonna be copies of already-released material? This needs to stop. I think everybody should have their songs be as original as possible.
Thoughts?
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He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
Edited by - alika207 on 02/07/2010 06:17:11 AM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 06:26:44 AM
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There are a limited amount of notes to use...the mix of how they are used is what makes the music. I know Woody Guthrie said he's steal from about anybody. There are bound to be parts of mele that sound similar to other works of music. I think that part of Aloha `Oe sounds sort of like "How Great Thou Art".
Old time country music, wow, they stole each others music all the time. That was back in the days before copyrights and such. Any kind of folk music probably has folks who "stole" from another song, or parts of another song.
Listen to slack key vamps in Taro Patch...you could start singing a myriad of mele that would fit.
Even Hi`ilawe, which has been attributed to Mrs. Kuakina and also to Sam Li`a . Which is the real one? Who knows. Aunty Amy Stillman showed me a web site where you can read the lyrics to a couple of other mele that have words very similar to the Hi`ilawe we are familiar with, but a couple of different melodies, different names and so on and attributed to different haku mele. Aunty Amy suspects that perhaps it was "arrangements" of Hi`ilawe that were attributed to a specific author.
There will always be mele that remind you of other mele, similar in sound or tone or rhythm. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 07:15:53 AM
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| I too noticed the similarity between the verse of "Aloha 'Oe" and the chorus of "How Great Thou Art." The points you make are true. However, what I'm interested in finding out is, whether all of you think that eventually everything put out is gonna be stolen from music already put out. This does not include vamps, chord progressions, or anything like that. I'm thinking more in terms of melodies, instrumental solos, etc. |
He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 07:55:21 AM
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How long have humans been making music? Even with the enormous number of technically distinct note sequences and metrical patterns available, every tradition is already full of echoes and outright imitations--it's the way we make just about everything. Folk traditions especially imitate and build on what has already been made, generally without much anxiety about it. Innovation can be valued without insisting that every new creation be absolutely original (as if that were even possible).
If you're a player in any tradition, you eventually realize, as you're learning a "new" tune, that it bears a strong resemblance to something you already know--and eventually you recognize whole families of tunes. Ownership systems like copyright develop rules for what constitutes originality and authorship and permissible re-use of materials, but that's about control for economic purposes and has little to do with how music is actually generated. See the recent news stories about Men at Work's "Down Under" for an example of this part of Western culture in operation.
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Edited by - Russell Letson on 02/07/2010 07:56:35 AM |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 09:47:45 AM
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Amateurs borrow, professionals steal.
It's very common in jazz to "quote" a familiar phrase from a different tune, while playing a solo; it's like a little joke for the players and listeners who are paying attention. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 11:37:56 AM
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Alika-
You raise an interesting point in asking that "everybody should have their songs be as original as as possible."
But have you considered what that might mean if it was actually carried out? (Short of just listening to Harry Partch and Conlon Nancarrow---oy.)
For one thing, you would not be able to recognize any musical genre.
Hawaiian music sounds like Hawaiian music because...it sounds like Hawaiian music. In other words, each song is constrained to a certain melodic and harmonic range that relates to all the other songs in the genre; each uses a fairly consistent 4/4 or 3/4 rhythm, with a basic underlying pulse... etc etc.
That is why anyone familiar with the world's music can instantly recognize a song as coming from Mali, Brazil, Ireland, etc etc. Or, in the classical world, name the approximate year it was composed.
Sometimes, the genius of the composer is in how he or she uses a bit of melody from another song to create something new. Retro mentioned jazz players quoting a melody in a solo--even more basic are the hundred of jazz tunes composed over the chords of an earlier song--like "Scapple from the Apple," which is the changes for "Honeysuckle Rose'"
You aren't old enough to know Steve Miller, who was notorious for writing new pop songs over recycled guitar riffs. Be thankful for that.  (no flames.. I liked Steve Miller, way back in the 'wayback.)
Sometimes it is an innocent mistake--at least George Harrison said so when he got popped for "My Sweet Lord." I once spent a week trying to write a contemporary celtic melody only to discover I'd rewritten "The Boys of Wexford."
And sometimes it really is just an accident that two songs share some melodic ideas. As Wanda pointed out, there really aren't all that many possible choices...
....Unless you are the aleatory composer (who's name I've forgotten) who's work consisted of stuffing manuscript paper into a trash can, unloading a clip from an AK47 into it, and mailing pages out to random musicians across the country, with the note to play whatever the heck you thought the holes represented, on whatever instrument you wanted to, at a specific time on a specific day.
Yep, I love folk music.
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 11:48:13 AM
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Ethnomusicologist Charles Seeger once said "Plagiarism is basic to all cultures." As Auntie said, there are only 8 notes, sooner or later someone will repeat a sequence. In traditional Hawaiian mele, the use of an older verbal phrase was done purposely, and was considered a standard poetic device. Most other cultures seem to have frowned upon it more often than not, but quoting politicians and public figures has kept several generations of "Stand-Up Philosophers" working steady. And Weird Al has made a carrer of it, usually with the laughter and consent of his targets.
Now, how do I spell check this? I suspect something is spelled wrong here, but I'm lost.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 11:57:13 AM
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Another point I forgot is that many composers have borrowed from the songs of birds for their compositions. Unless the birds(Not The Byrds)haven't filed for copywrite violation, I guess they're good with it.
Interviwer: "Mr. Berry, how did you come up with your unique guitar style?"
Chuck Berry: "I copied music I liked, but I made mistakes. Those mistakes are "The Chuck Berry Style."
I believe this was in Guitar Player Magazine, if I find the interview I'll check to see how far my quote is from the actual wording.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2182 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 2:21:42 PM
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| John Hartford said that style is based on limitation. Have enough limitations and you have a genre. Have a bunch of folks obsessed with the limitations and you have a festival. Have enough money made within the confines of the limitations and you have lawyers and accountants. (Nothing wrong with eating from hard work, but there are only 12 notes in the universe, barring quarter tones). I still think that we need a national holiday in recognition of digital tuners. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 2:44:59 PM
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I love Koryisms.
They are better than Unko Paul-isms, because, as you know, he steals from everyone. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 02/07/2010 2:46:04 PM |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 4:02:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by thumbstruck
but there are only 12 notes in the universe, barring quarter tones
Which is the limitation that Harry Partch shattered by having 43 tones to his "octave." "12 notes" is just the set our ears are most drawn to; and if you don't have quarter tones, you don't have the blues. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 10:20:01 AM
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quote:
"12 notes" is just the set our ears are most drawn to; and if you don't have quarter tones, you don't have the blues.
Actually, I think it is more correct to say "12 tones has become the de facto standard in western music over the past couple hundred years." But who's to quibble?
Personally, my ears are drawn to the notes between the notes... either that, or I just play out of tune a lot. 
Yep, without quarter tones (and slightly more-then- or less-than- quarter tones) you wouldn't have blues. Or Irish, Appalachian, Cajun or swing fiddle tunes. Or any bagpipes (a blessing, some would say).
Or just about any vocal music based in any way upon African-American traditions--and just try to find any American music that isn't!
I do like the way Harry Partch keeps popping up in these discussions on TaroPatch. If we keep this up, some future musicologist searching the 'net for information on American avant garde composers will write the seminal paper: "Harry Partch and Gabby Pahinui… Kindred Spirits in Altered Tuning Systems or What?"
This might be a good place to name check the Brazilian group Uakti. If you are interested in very original music, unbelievable musical instruments and unusual tuning systems, check 'em out.
Oh, and they groove. Hard.
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 11:35:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
quote:
"12 notes" is just the set our ears are most drawn to; and if you don't have quarter tones, you don't have the blues.
Actually, I think it is more correct to say "12 tones has become the de facto standard in western music over the past couple hundred years." But who's to quibble?
Good quibble - I like your definition better than my previous one.
quote:
Yep, without quarter tones (and slightly more-then- or less-than- quarter tones) you wouldn't have blues. Or Irish, Appalachian, Cajun or swing fiddle tunes. Or any bagpipes (a blessing, some would say).
Ah, the instrument of my ancestors - an ill wind that nobody blows good.
quote:
I do like the way Harry Partch keeps popping up in these discussions on TaroPatch. If we keep this up, some future musicologist searching the 'net for information on American avant garde composers will write the seminal paper: "Harry Partch and Gabby Pahinui… Kindred Spirits in Altered Tuning Systems or What?"
Uh-oh. That will lead to someone claiming that somebody said Harry Partch played slack key - and that whole damn discussion will play out yet again.
quote:
This might be a good place to name check the Brazilian group Uakti. If you are interested in very original music, unbelievable musical instruments and unusual tuning systems, check 'em out.
They have collaborated with folks ranging from Philip Glass to Paul Simon. Powerful stuff (and probably easier for most folks to digest than Harry Partch). |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 12:53:57 PM
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When
I took ethonmusicology, I learned that much American Indian music is based on microtones, which the anthropologists missed back in the late 1800's. Especially in Central America. Sounds like one tone to us but not to them. |
keaka |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 3:37:47 PM
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I think I learned this from Professor Medeiros . . Many of the Hawaiian Melodies we have come to love and sing are actually old hymns brought to Hawaii by the first missionaries. The Reverend Lorenzo Lyons (buried in the Imiola Church grounds in Waimea on the Big Island) wrote the words for Hawai'i Aloha -- the melody is from a hymn "I Left It All With Jesus". Gabby Pahinui's version of Hi'ilawe is the same melody as another traditional song -- do you know what it is?
It was no big deal -- actually it was a compliment for Hawaiians to use the melody of a song they liked, write their own Hawaiian poetry to it and sing it anew or for a hula. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2182 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2010 : 5:35:03 PM
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Our ears are used to the tempered scale. We meld the microtones into the music. It's called "style".
Americans have a spectator culture, as opposed to a participatory one (there are exceptions, here in the 'patch, for example, and Bluegrass festivals etc). There is a lot less group singing, with the result that many or most don't know how to listen so as to carry a tune. Has anyone come accross a "tune-bucket" to help these folks? |
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Stealing From Other People's Music
