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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
 Posted - 10/08/2010 : 06:08:22 AM
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I would agree that to untrained ears and/or with certain limited range instruments, the Bose L1's can sound good at first. But as I have pointed out before, they are built with the cheapest possible components (even cheaper that radio Shack or Carvin) and their technical specs are absurdly bad, yet they charge a High Price.
George Kahumoku has an L1 system that has been used for several years at his workshop and I have performed with it several times myself, including in a trio with Norton Buffalo on Harmonica. I am not impressed by the sound except that the Horizontal dispersion for the mid-range (1KHz to 8Khz) is very wide (which is normal for a line-array). There have been a fair number of problems with feedback too, and when the thing does feedback it screeches very badly at around 8Hkhz (very painful). This is because there is a strong HF peak in the L1 response near that frequency (with is part of why it sounds "open" to casual listeners. I have over 40 hours of working with and listening to George's L1 and I like the sound of it less and less. I think if anyone else besides Bose made a line array similar to the L1 (it is a very old idea after all) it would be hard to make it sound any worse, but the concept of a Line Array in small performance situations is not a bad one.
I can post scientific data and proper engineering analysis showing why Bose is so bad, but those who are "true believers" either won't understand it or won't believe it (or both).
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 10/08/2010 06:27:05 AM |
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no ka oi
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2010 : 06:32:07 AM
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Aloha Lawrence, I have been performing music since the days of the Shure Vocalmaster. I have played in every situation imaginable. I'm not really a "casual" listener. I agree that the Bose system is expensive, but so are all Bose products. Its advantages, however, would outweigh that factor if money if not an object. It is easy to carry and set up. There is no lifting huge JBL speakers onto stands. It takes up very little room. The speaker columns can be placed in back of the performers so they hear what the audience hears. There is no need for monitors. Maybe someone could make one better for less, but they don't. The alternatives are a large, cumbersome PA that takes a well versed soundman ($$$) to operate or a truly crappy sound like the small acoustic guitar amps (talk about mid range hump). Fender used to make an high end acoustic guitar amp called the Ultralight. The head was awesome (made in Mexico) but fairly low power. It was the closest I've heard an acoustic guitar amp sound like an acoustic guitar. The SWR California Blond and Strawberry Blond are pretty good and the brand new Fishman Loudbox mini is surprisingly good if it's not pushed too hard. Praise for the Roland Cube is beyond me. I was kind of forced to use one of the at Uncle Robert's in Kalapana a short time ago and even though the soundman was pretty good, the sound of my guitar was horrible no matter what I did. I used the same guitar at a session recently on the mainland and just for comparison, it was run direct and the producer came out of the control room to see what the guitar was. He said he never heard anything sound so good. This was just with a piezo uts.
I've used literally every acoustic amp available over the years and can tell you nothing really worked except for the above mentioned Fender which is no longer available. |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2010 : 07:10:27 AM
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Note that I said "Casual Listener and/or certain instruments". Acoustic guitars and some (but not all) voices can sound nice on an L1, but this is precisely because of the "peakiness" or "built-in EQ" of the Bose design. They take the concept if a "smiling curve" to an extreme with a Mid-Bass boost and the inevitable Lower-High-End boost (8-10Khz) of the super cheap paper cone 3" speakers in the line array. You can get the same effect with most Amps by cranking the EQ controls a little, but on the Bose you have no choice, it is built in. If you sit and listen to familiar material (or Pink Noise) played back through an L1 you will hear this terribly peaky response, and it is easily measured. This is what I meant by "Casual Listener" (someone who cannot hear how far off the system is from being flat simply by careful listening).
As I pointed out in my earlier "rant" some months ago (and it was quite a polite rant at that, I even apologized in advance and announced that I was going to do a little ranting), I am not entirely critical of the L1 concept. But I certainly do not like the Bose corporation, nor what they represent.
Maybe the L1 is a little easier to carry around, than some JBLs or Mackie or some such. My cheap little Carvin StageMaster system is easy to carry around too, costs a whole lot less, and I have had numerous people comment on how good it sounded. At least Carvin is not spending Millions in advertising trying to pretend that their little box is much better than it really is.
P.S. - I too used a VocalMaster for several years.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 10/08/2010 07:31:42 AM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2010 : 07:44:22 AM
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quote:
I would agree that to untrained ears and/or with certain limited range instruments, the Bose L1's can sound good at first.
Lawrence, I have to take exception to that remark.
quote:
Note that I said "Casual Listener and/or certain instruments".
Ummm... see the first quote.
I think my reputation as a recording engineer stands on its own. But you can ask Keola Beamer, the Terra Nova Consort, the Oregon Shakespearean Festival, Hear to Him Productions, or any one of a couple hundred former clients if my ears are any good.
Or ask Bernie Grundman... who gave me the highest compliment a recording engineer can receive: (mumble... "good mix, I don't need to do much..." mumble...)
I've also done front of house for tons of concerts, going back to the 70s--and I've used Bose stuff for much of that. Yep, 800s -- the old wooden boxes. With the huge amounts of power they required. Never owned a Vocal Master, thank god.
We have been through this before, at exhausting length. I respect your opinion, and I can read all the white papers you throw at me. But I respectfully disagree. As do many others; including my friend Stephen Gagne, who owns an L1 System. Stephen, in case you don't remember, designed and ran sound systems for Bill Graham--his last gig was a modest little affair called "the Last Waltz."
All I said, and I will say it again, is that I think the L1 Compact system is worth a listen. As is the Fishman... same basic concept.
Yes, both are a chunk of change. Is it worth it? You don't think so; I'm not sure.
Considering that a comparable system with a couple powered mains, stands, monitors, mixer, outboard EQ and compression would cost quite a bit more, it may not be a bad deal. Or maybe it is--so folks need to do their own math.
Is there an EQ curve on the L1? Of course there is. That's kind of the whole point, innit? The idea is to make a "plug and play" system pre-EQed for the singer-guitarist. By the way, you can defeat this: use an external mixer and select "line in."
Is it perfect for every application? Of course not.
I agree with Trev--It is just a shame that every time someone brings up Bose we have to go through this.
Maybe we should debate the merits of Mac vs PC instead... |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2010 : 08:05:52 AM
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Mark,
quote:
By the way, you can defeat this: use an external mixer and select "line in."
The line-in inputs will still have the High-Frequency Peaking of the line array, this is unaviodable, I was not talking about the "Tone-Match" inputs, but the response of the basic system (i.e. through the line inputs as you state).
And apparently we do agree that the system is not flat (which is where "Casual Listener/Untrained Ears applies"). Lots of folks would not notice this but you did. In fact it has far from reasonably good response even through the line inputs.
Even in my first post Months ago, and in these posts, I have pointed out the certain instruments will likely sound good on an L1 (such as acoustic guitars), and also have indicated that there is nothing wrong with the basic concept.
But I will always be critical of the Bose Corporation and will always point out the deficiencies in their equipment, unless they start acting as semi-honorable company with at least semi-honest representation of their products.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 10/08/2010 08:13:06 AM |
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no ka oi
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2010 : 08:10:55 AM
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Aloha Lawrence -Well, talk about the casual listener. Most audiences wouldn't know good sound from bad. I'm not saying they don't deserve the best sound possible, but I feel it's important to a good performance for my stage sound to be as good as possible. I can't emphasize enough the importance of me hearing what the audience hears.
It was my impression that the L1 was designed for acoustic performances. I wouldn't wnat to mike my Tele through it, but it sounds awesome with my acoustic. Vocals as well. The ones I've seen even had an input for Taylor guitars. Probably just a joint marketing thing at the time, but it says something towards what the system was designed for.
As far as EQ, when I play live I generally use a "smile". The mids are down to almost zero. This takes away the boxy sound I find so objectionable. In the studio, my guitar is usually EQ just the opposite.
I too don't particularly like the Bose company. The way they market this system, it is not available to the neighborhood music store even though I know many who would like to carry it. It is only available from the big online dealers and the big box monsters. But I learned a long time ago to take the "politics" out of the equation. |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2010 : 08:22:43 AM
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But I learned a long time ago to take the "politics" out of the equation.
Ah yes, but I cannot ignore "politics" when I make purchases, especially when I know ahead of time the company is actively trying to cheat me (regardless of other political concerns).
quote:
Maybe we should debate the merits of Mac vs PC instead...
I would rather debate the superiority of Reaper vs ProTools!  (Not)
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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no ka oi
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2010 : 08:42:43 AM
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So are you saying that your reviews are "colored" by the politics of the company?
Aloha
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2010 : 09:02:36 AM
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So are you saying that your reviews are "colored" by the politics of the company?
I do not do "reviews", but Mark does, and generally very good ones ( i would trust his ear more than most). My opinion is indeed colored to the extent that engineering analysis of the sonic quality and quality of components of Bose systems (aka: the facts) are in very great dis-agreement with the quality that Bose proclaims (if you want to call that politics - I prefer to call it honesty). Bose is not the only corporation to lie about their products, most companies do to some extent, but, other than Monster, they are one of the worst.
If you go over to the Acoustic Guitar Magazine site, you will also find that there are many (including some x-owners) who do not like the Bose systems there as well, and similar discussions as this one have arisen. (Without even any posts from me!)
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his last gig was a modest little affair called "the Last Waltz"
Yes - one my top five most favorite music films.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 10/08/2010 09:26:05 AM |
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no ka oi
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2010 : 09:23:57 AM
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Well, we certainly agree about Monster.
I seemed to me that you were doing a review of sorts of the L1. My misunderstanding. Most reviews of the L1 are very positive. Some are always going to bad no matter what the product.
I generally put specs aside when using my ears. I have to trust what I hear more than anything.
Anyway, I'm treating myself to some time at Puako and dinner and music at the Bamboo in Hawi, preceded by some awesome Kava at the Kava bar in town. I love the Big Island! |
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ArtSap
Lokahi
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2010 : 06:51:02 AM
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| My take on all of this - "it ain't what you got, it's what you do with what you got!" You can have the best engineered and most expensive equipment manufactured but if you don't know how to use it, then it's a waste! I see and hear this argument all the time from people who profess to be experienced this and experienced that with a degree in that, but when it comes to actually applying all of their so-called expertise and training, they really don't know what they're doing either. To put it another way, don't just talk-the-talk, walk-the-walk... |
Art
SF Bay Area, CA / Mililani, HI
"The real music comes from within you - not from the instrument" |
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leokiekie
Aloha
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2010 : 06:54:44 AM
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Ricdoug
I'd like to see the footage of the Roland BA-330 in action. I have the Bose L1 but like the battery powered option of the Rolands. I'd like to hear how they sound in your videos. Thanks. |
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ricdoug
`Olu`olu
USA
513 Posts |
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ricdoug
`Olu`olu
USA
513 Posts |
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ricdoug
`Olu`olu
USA
513 Posts |
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Amplification
