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John
`Olu`olu
656 Posts |
 Posted - 05/01/2004 : 4:26:30 PM
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What's the rules on sharing and/or distributing guitar tabulations?
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Edited by - admirable on 08/12/2004 4:45:06 PM |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2004 : 7:21:51 PM
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Hi Admirable,
I just wrote a response and my computer went down before I had a chance to post, so this one might be shorter.
As a disclaimer, I am not an attorney.
The short legal answer to your question is yes, tabbing someone else's music is a violation of copyright.
Original authors have several exclusive rights pertaining to the words and music they create. These rights include reproduction and distribution. So, tabbing someone else's copyrighted work violates their right of reproduction. Giving that tab to someone else violates the original songwriter's right of distribution.
The second angle to your question is a practical view. There are many customs in musical culture. Often times, these customs violate copyright law. Tabbing music is one of those customs. Public performance of music "covers" also violates the original author's rights in some situations.
That's the short answer. I hope it's somewhat comprehensible. I'm going to hit "send" before my computer goes down.
Take care |
Darin
http://www.hawaiiguitar.com/ |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2004 : 7:24:13 PM
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Two more quick responses. Making money does not affect the analysis at all. A violation of copyright only looks at whether one of the author's exclusive rights has been violated.
Second, the tab of "Kaulana Na Pua" requires permission of the original songwriter (assuming the copyright term hasn't lapsed). Keola is not the legal author of the song, only the sound recording. |
Darin
http://www.hawaiiguitar.com/ |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2004 : 9:43:14 PM
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Here's what a lawyer told me:
Tabbing someone else's version of a song for yourself is usually considered OK under "fair use." Passing that TAB around is where the problem comes in. The attorney said that your own arrangement of someone else's song gets into a grey area. Certainly, if you are charging for it, you need to pay a royalty. If you are not charging, it may be a violation -- the courts are not perfectly clear about that.
Playing that version in public also begins to raise issues. Most people believe that if you are not playing for money, it's "passable." Once money is involved, you are required to pay royalties. If the case goes to court, damages are awarded in part by how much harm you have done to the "owner" of the song. If you've played it at a festival with no gate fee, or a local coffee shop, it's going to be tough to prove substantial. If you circulate it where enough people who would pay the original owner for it now get it for free - you are more than likely setting yourself up for damages.
There is another "kink" with Hawaiian music in that the traditional culture considers the "owner" of a mele inoa" to be the person for whom the song was composed. Not yet tested in courts, but my attornet friend said you can make a good case for it.
Hope that is useful.
BTW, Keola has TABed and distributed at workshops his version of Kaulana Na Pua. |
Edited by - RJS on 05/01/2004 9:44:12 PM |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2004 : 07:14:02 AM
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Now when these tabs are made available at workshops, lessons, or self-produced, doesn't it seem possible and perhaps kind to share with our braddahs and sistahs--or is that another grey matter?
Obviously, it depends on the source.
When in this conundrum, I always ask," WWTGDD" ("What would the Greatful Dead do?). and What will my lawyer say? Oh, wait, I'm between lawyers right now.
Spell check? I don need no stinkin' spellcheck!
And well, yea, the GD were not known for their business savvy-- but I hear their monthly meetings were unreal!
What was the subject?
G
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2004 : 12:09:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RJS
Playing that version in public also begins to raise issues. Most people believe that if you are not playing for money, it's "passable." Once money is involved, you are required to pay royalties. ,snip> If you've played it at a festival with no gate fee, or a local coffee shop, it's going to be tough to prove substantial.
Performers do not have to worry about fees for public performance--that's the responsibility of the venue, and collection and enforcement are in the hands of ASCAP and BMI, who as agents for the songwriters scout bars, clubs, coffeehouses, theatres, and such and see to the arrangements. (There are a lot of stories about their bullying tactics as well, but that's not the issue here.)
Long-standing notions of "fair use" are being eroded by the corporate forces behind the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and the extension of copyright term (mostly to protect the assets of Disney), but transcribing a tune for your own use remains your perogative (as does making a backup copy of a CD you own, or xeroxing a few pages of a book for research purposes, or taping TV shows or radio broadcasts off the air). Giving your transcription (or a copy of it) to someone else may constitute "distribution," but I've never heard of enforcement reaching down to that level of exchange, though a composer would almost certainly be within his rights to demand compensation for multiple copies used in a for-pay workshop setting.
But despite what a litigation-oriented lawyer might say, practically speaking there are thresholds below which people won't bother to seek redress--which doesn't mean that a copyright holder with the means and inclination can't use the cost of legal action as a bludgeon. But that's another topic.
BTW, if what I just read in some liner notes is accurate, "Kaulana Na Pua" was composed in the 1890s and should be in the public domain even by the Mouse Protection Act standards.
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Edited by - Russell Letson on 05/02/2004 12:13:46 PM |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2004 : 12:18:28 PM
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"Now when these tabs are made available at workshops, lessons, or self-produced, doesn't it seem possible and perhaps kind to share with our braddahs and sistahs--or is that another grey matter?"
Sharing depends on permission from the songwriter or songwriters. That's the safest route to go.
As Raymond mentioned above, you may have a "fair use" defense. However, fair use depends on four factors, and anytime an analysis depends on factors, most problems usually become grey. |
Darin
http://www.hawaiiguitar.com/ |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2004 : 1:14:56 PM
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| My philosophy is, WIDATA...when in doubt, ask the artist. Almost all of today's slack key artists are very accessible, many by email, and have a great deal of respect for anyone who asks prior to sharing. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2004 : 2:47:50 PM
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I'll second Craig...
In my experience I've only had 1 artists ask me not to distribute -- and that was because I was doing a workshop for 20 people. In a different way, that was a blessing, 'cause it forced me to come up with my own version/TAB.. and it was very well received. |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2004 : 6:14:26 PM
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| The only artists that have asked me not to share freely have asked for a small fee for any copies shared, which I gladly paid. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2004 : 6:38:03 PM
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According to my legal sources, there are very few really clear cut answers. Here's the guidance I've been give:
Song in public domain, no problem distributing
Song under copyright - royalties
Other person's arrangement - royalties
"Borrowing ideas" from other arrangement but not ripping it off -- grey area -- depends on how "substantial" the "borrowing" is.
Number of copies distributed - doesn't matter -- however, not many people are going to go through the expense of geting a lawyer for a few copies.
You technically do not have to get previous permission from the copyright owner to record and sell music as long as you pay mechanical royalties. Publishing the printed words of a song (when more than a short excerpt) usually requires previous permission.
Over and above all the legal stuff is the question of good will and treating each other with aloha.
My attorney friend also says that the above are guidelines, and any specific case can go to a different resolution in court. The Disney ruling is also much more mean spirited, but those guys don't yet own the rights to much Hawaiian music, at least until deMello sells out. |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2004 : 12:51:36 PM
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Yep, it was worth it.
I've been following this one closely. I'm in contact with the
'operators' of TabCrawler. When I am able to figure out xactly
what he's saying about how he runs their web site...I'll post
it here.
The basic idea is that work (tab) is posted for viewing, not
for sale. The tab posted are 'versions of, stylings like,
interpretations of...etc.
The same 3 song comment is more true than a few may care
to admit.
On a hunch I did a quick search on TabCrawler for some slack
key. I found a HAPA song, where the credit as the author
was given to Barry Flanagan. The version is by so and so,
and says that it is their version of the song only.
I chose that song only because I have the purchased sheet
music for the piece. The version on Tabcrawler is neither
accurate nor complete.
IF, IF you had heard the song before, could you figure it out
from the tab on TabCrawler...absolutely. Is it the piece that
Barry and Keali'i wrote? Nope, not really even close. But it
does give people a starting direction for figuring out the song.
A lot of TabCrawler is like that. There may be 30 different
versions of the same song, each submitted as someones elses'
version.
I do not make my living by people purchasing my music. Like
a lot of us here I want to support the author/artist.
But...as the recent RIAA/file sharing debate has shown, there
may be some compromise on the horizon.
Maybe OLGA and TabCrawler aren't 100% out of the grey area.
Maybe there will soon be a site that say ala Apple...listed
thousands of tablature titles, accurate and with the author/
artists blessing. Maybe those tabs will cost say $0.99,
just like the audio versions do now.
No longer a search for an obscure book, out of print to learn
a piece. As with the music, authors would find sales from
people buying songs piece by piece that they would never had
sold to in the first place.
Just a thought, as a possible solution. (I am not claiming
that Apples system is perfect) I'm aware of the debate.
However, music sales have climbed for the first time in 4 years.
Happy Slacking
(der ya go John, my finger musta slipped)
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my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2004 : 4:07:06 PM
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Is it the lawyer thing? Is everybody afraid of getting sued? So, it is true then... the man has finally gotten to us all. Sheez...what a world.
yeah, lots of bad karma from the music world right now, sigh 
i'll tab up stuff that i can to give to friends, with a request not to redistribute. craig has been really good about this. i figure that i could sit down with the friend and show them how to do it or i could give them the tab. if it's my own arrangement of an old tune than i don't worry about it.
how in the $($*&!!!!! can you tell if there's a copywrite being held? i have a version of "kuhio bay" that i've wanted to tab up, but i can't find anything about keliana bishaw. i don't know if she wrote it in the 30s or the 70s, and i've not found anyone in the bishaw `ohana who can fill me in.
aloha, keith
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Mainkaukau
Lokahi
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2004 : 5:23:39 PM
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Ain't no big thing braddas. When I hear a song that I like, I just learn it(usually by ear) and play it. If the composer doesn't like me performing his/her song for whatever reason. I say, "Sorry about that, please excuse me for my insensitivity to your problem", then I move on to the next song. Plenty beautiful songs out there. Copyright laws basically focus on the making da buck$. If you want to make money in the music business I would suggest you try selling real estate instead. Not to many people get rich playing music. Those who play music for the love of playing music know what I mean. Just share, be happy and I have faith in human integrity. Have a gooood kanikapila!
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chunky monkey
Ha`aha`a
USA
1022 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2004 : 6:16:35 PM
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for cpatch,
Did you "consult" with John Keawe before you tabbed Momma's Music Box? I tried to get something from John (tab, nusic, whatever) and he explained that he didn't know how to do that stuff; he just played by ear. I want to learn John's music and tab is about the only way that I could ever pull it off. I've shared John's music with many friends. If John has no tab and cpatch tabs one of his songs, giving him credit for the tune and doesn't intend to make money, I see no harm no foul. Everyone is better off, including John. |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 01:16:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jwn
I (and again I hope it's "we") want to share, but there's these rules that keep us from doing so.
I'll be so bold to suggest that us passing around tabs could very well generate more in the way of sales (of CD's etc.) than any amount of buck$ that we would be, dare I say, "stealing". I just feel awful that someone sees it that way. I know, I know, there's two sides to the argument. "It IS stealing!" I can hear 'em saying. I just wish there was a way... maybe not easy... but a way.
Hi John,
I hear you. It's a touchy subject with many grey areas. Yes, we want to perpetuate the tradition. As students and fans of slack key and `ukulele, nobody here wants it to die out. In fact, I know that there are people out there tabbing out all kinds of recordings which in the long run is a way to preserve and document the music and styles of players who are no longer with us already. Sharing that tab is inarguably a way to pass down that music so that it does not disappear forever. Was permission granted to tab the recordings. I don't think so. Would it be illegal to pass it on to other guitar players? I would guess, probably.
I also agree that we are in small circles. Moreover, when it comes to Hawai`i, if I may generalize here, many kumu would be okay with sharing the music. The perpetuation, tradition, history and aloha preceeds the money. From what I know, few in hula or Hawaiian music are in it for the mighty dollar (although it is nice when it can pay the bills.)
Okay, here is where the problem comes in for me as Admin of this site. We live in a litigious society that seems to grow increasingly so every day. How can it not be when someone who spills coffee in their lap can sue and be awarded millions of dollars because their coffee was hot without a warning label?!?! Because of things like this, what is logical and deemed reasonable by a consensus cannot be relied upon to stay out of legal trouble. You indirectly reference it yourself in the case of IRH. Does IRH promote more sales of Hawaiian music or detract from sales? I'd bet most of us, if not all, think that IRH enhances sales but that logic did not keep IRH out of nearly closing down permanantly.
So my concern is that if we as an online community promoted sharing of tablature, even in the noble attempt of perpetuating Hawaiian music internationally, it would just take one artist with a lawyer to "maybe" decide that his/her intellectual property was being improperly handled. Next thing, I get a cease and desist order threatening to shut down the site or even worse suing for damages. This is something I neither want to see nor can afford to deal with. I think without sharing tablature, to date, there is a tremendous amount of value here. To me, not worth losing over Taropatch.net facilitating the distribution of tabs. If it came to it, I do not have the time or resources to find out in a court of law which shade of grey is right or wrong.
I posted a policy in the FAQ a little while ago. Most people have probably not seen it. I agree with you, it is a dilemma. My opinion has been stated. As always, I am open to opinions, comments, support and/or criticism. |
Andy |
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