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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
 Posted - 05/05/2004 : 01:18:35 AM
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I think we have to make a distinction between trading TABS with friends and using this site as the vehicle. Aside from all the legal questions, the "worst" you can typically run into in passing some TABS to friends is some seriously bad vibes from the "owner." (In other words, I think the risk of someone paying a lawyer anywhere between $100 and $300 per hour to recover $1.60 in mechanical royalties or equivalent is pretty slim.) That said, some artists really don't want their stuff passed around and I think we should respect them. There is, after all, a lot of other music out there. However, I think using this site as the clearinghouse can risk jeopardizing the site and possibly set Andy up for some real headaches. In the past Andy has clearly said that he doesn;t want the site to go in that direction. Still holds true?(Your own version of something which is clearly in public domain should not be a problem, but Andy needs to give guidance on that point.)
Finally, and I think this is very very important -- whenever you trade or pass on TABS, give credit where credit is due. I have a couple of TABS sent to me by a well know artist with his name as credit -- they are, in fact, TABS which Ozzie created and gave him. That really upset Ozzie and hurt all of us, because as a result Ozzie tightened up his (perhaps overly) generous approach to giving out TABS.
I know that we slack key players are at a great loss because we don't have much music available. I have had to spend a lot of time, energy and money to learn how to "get" a song from a CD and develop a decent arrangement of my own. Maybe I'm overly cautious, but I wouldn't want to do anything to potentially harm this site or Andy. |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 01:41:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chunky monkey
Did you "consult" with John Keawe before you tabbed Momma's Music Box?
No...which is why I've only shared it with a few friends so far in order to get feedback on its accuracy. Once I finalize the tab I plan on sending him a copy and asking if it's OK to share with others. I would hope that since the tab credits his CD and since you really need to hear the song first before playing it that people would be encouraged to buy the CD as a result of the tab. But that's entirely up to him...he may choose to sell the tab for all I know, which is fine with me. (If I tab someone else's song then I offer the tab to them as a gift, to do with what they will.) |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 05/05/2004 01:43:49 AM |
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Mainkaukau
Lokahi
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 03:30:10 AM
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When I use to drink to much "Tab" soda as a young boy my father would tell me "What's wrong with Hawaiian water? Taste more better." Now, when I see a talented guitarist learning to many songs from other musician's tabs I tell them, "What's wrong with creating your own tab? More easy to do and more self-forfilling." Anyway, I agree with Andy that there are to many sensitive people out there to really push the copyright/distribution envelope without jeopardizing the Taropatch sight. Just relax, think of good things, play a little Slack-key guitar and maybe try to sing a little . Hey, no matter how you learn or who teaches you, you still got to practice. Share with you all at the next jam session. Alohas |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 10:29:00 AM
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hi eric,
quote:
Now, when I see a talented guitarist learning to many songs from other musician's tabs I tell them, "What's wrong with creating your own tab? More easy to do and more self-forfilling." ... Just relax, think of good things, play a little Slack-key guitar and maybe try to sing a little.
you sound like friend bill pellazar. despite increasing the appreciation of deafness among friends exposed to my singing, it was the best advice i was ever given on ki ho`alu... tab is both a wonderful learning tool and a tarpit.
aloha, keith
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 10:37:07 AM
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aloha e jwn,
i tabbed up my own version of isa lei in drop C, maybe that's what you're thinking of?
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Keith |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 1:37:58 PM
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Hi all,
I'll number my points so I can keep them clear.
1) I agree wholeheartedly with Andy. It does not take an actual copyright violation for a lawyer to write a threatening letter to shut down a site. Fighting for something in the grey area does costs money to pay lawyers. I do not want to expose Andy to any potential liability, or have this site shut down. TP is a wonderful service to us all.
2) In response to Raymond's post above "In other words, I think the risk of someone paying a lawyer anywhere between $100 and $300 per hour to recover $1.60 in mechanical royalties or equivalent is pretty slim" :
The copyright law allows for statutory damages instead of damages and lost profits as long as the copyrighted work is registered with the copyright office. Statutory damages were added to copyright law because actual damage is often impossible to prove. Without statutory damages, copyright law would be ineffective in situations of widespread and low cost infringement. A good example is mp3 file sharing. So, the amount actually awarded to the copyright holder can be much higher than the actual provable monetary loss. In most cases, the minimum statutory damage award is $500 and the max is $20,000. A judge decides the proper amount.
3) I tend to agree with the point that sharing tabs eventually benefits the composer by giving the composer wider exposure. However, this argument has also been made in the context of file sharing. Artists arguably benefit more by illegal file sharing because of wider exposure. While that may or may not be true, it is beside the point. The ultimate decision should still be left to the artist who created the work. The song is their property, and they should do as they please with that property. Copyright law gives artists economically valuable property rights and it is up to the artist to decide what to do with those rights. If they want to sell a tab book of their own music, that's their decision. If they want to share their music freely, that is up to them too.
4) It has hinted here that copyright law hinders the perpetuation of Hawaiian music. I disagree. Copyright law is essential to a flourishing Hawaiian music culture. That may not have been the case in the past, but is certainly the case today. Copyright law is the primary source of income for songwriters. Yes, people play music for the love, but they also need to put food on the table. Increased income streams gives musicians the option of pursuing their craft full time, and leads to a more developed body of music. How many Hawaiian musicians do you know that pursue their craft full time? There are very few. The ones that do pursue music as a full time job work very hard. In Hawaii, copyright law has received weak enforcement due to a lack of understanding on the part of musicians of their rights and because musicians think that playing music for the love of it doesn't include asserting their rights. This has contributed to poor income streams for local musicians. |
Darin
http://www.hawaiiguitar.com/ |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 4:15:13 PM
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This is a bit off track, but...
In terms of musician's fees, the bigger problem isn't copyright enforcement or royalties -- it is who owns the actual song. (Heck, if performer x sold a tab or sheet music of his latest song, I'd be happy to fork over $5.00 or so for a xerox of an accurate version. Problem is that nobody's doing it, which pretty much limits you to very expensive workshops in HI or moving over there.) Quite simply, however, many artists today no longer own the rights to their own songs and, consequently, don't make a penny off them. I know that there is serious talk amoung Hawaiian artists of keeping control of their own work. We should all support that. |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 4:40:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marzullo
i have a version of "kuhio bay" that i've wanted to tab up, but i can't find anything about keliana bishaw. i don't know if she wrote it in the 30s or the 70s, and i've not found anyone in the bishaw `ohana who can fill me in.
I've searched the ASCAP database, got no hits for Keliana Bishaw and a credit for a Johnny Noble "Kuhio Bay," administered by EMI (and no performers). BMI and SESAC searches yielded nada. So it's possible that the song was never under copyright or has fallen into the public domain (though a search at pdinfo.com also got no hits)--in any case, it appears not to be registered with the licensing agencies.
This matter of who controls publishing (which is what's at issue here) is interestingly complicated--Fats Waller sold the rights to some of his songs for as little as $10 to generate quick cash. So it's possible that unauthorized tabs deprive not artists but Engulf & Devour Corp. of income. (For example, AOL Time Warner owns the rights to "Happy Birthday.") Not that it's OK to steal from megacorps, but it might change the way one *feels* about it.
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Edited by - Russell Letson on 05/05/2004 4:49:10 PM |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 5:26:38 PM
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| My info is that you don't actually have to register with the Copyright Office to "own the copyright." In fact the US Gov't provides and easy and cheap alternative -- Tab the song, record it, and mail it to yurself. When it arrives, don't open it. Courts have established US Postmarks as proof of the origination date of a piece of visual art, writing and/or music |
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Stringbreaker
Akahai
USA
62 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 6:38:58 PM
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| True. Also, as with printed artwork and literature, the US subscribes to the Berne convention, where a copyright notice is not required as proof of ownership. However, the issue is proving that the person copying and/or selling you work had prior knowledge of the copyright. The mailing method will indeed work to establish ownership of the copyright, but without a written notice of some kind, ignorance can be pleaded and that will reduce damages (which is the issue in any kind of copyright dispute). Maybe my focus is off of this topic, but protecting the rights of the artist (if they kept them) is pretty important to me. |
Crazy Man Tuning |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 9:13:29 PM
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Re "poor man's copyright": what constitutes due diligence in terms of copyright?
with congress continuously increasing copyright, the poor man's copyright seem untenable.
okay, let me go play some music now.
aloha,
keith
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 9:53:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RJS
I know that there is serious talk amoung Hawaiian artists of keeping control of their own work. We should all support that.
This is true. Last time I was in Hawai`i, a hoku winning artist told me, "If anyone at your website ever asks you for tips about the music industry, tell them to own everything. Songs, master recordings, everything." Of course this is not limited to Hawaiian music, look at the artist currently again known as Prince. Side note: I rarely ever go to big concerts but am going to see Prince in June.
And to jwn, this topic is always touchy. But your multiple personality posting made me smile. |
Andy |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2004 : 1:34:51 PM
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And I thought that some of the pro's (or semi-pro's) would provide us with their feelings on the matter.
Yow, I just stumbled across this thread... lotsa words, guys.
Here's my 2 cents:
Ya want to TAB out someone's song to learn it? Do it -- you'll learn far more than if you used an existing bit of TAB. Ya wanna share what you've learned? Ummm.... depends, doesn't it?
Personally, I love it when someone takes the time to TAB out one of my original songs, and learns to play it. However, I take great offence if that person then "shares" the TAB with someone else.
In the first instance I am honored that someone would make that effort. In the second, you are ripping me off -- not so much monetarily as karmically. It's my decision whether I want to teach the tune, not yours.
That goes for my arrangements of "traditional" material, too.
If you want to pass around TABs of songs in the public domain that are your own unique arrangement, that's a different story.
It ain't about lawyers, it's about doing the right thing.
Personally, I'd like to hear more folks playing by ear and putting your heart into it. Music isn't about the notes.
So get out there and play some!
Mark
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2004 : 02:52:06 AM
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Well this whole string seems a little "overcooked" and loses perspective for the level of money and importance most of this "treachery" entails.
When I make a thousand CD's then I take care of business--especially the songwriters and the publishers. But nominal copying and sharing with close friends? Get real...Aloha is a two-way street.
Yea, yea, occassionally, we all need to review the basics of kosher sharing and legalities...but don't go nuts over the little stuff.
Like when da Big Boys went after some kids for downloading Brittany Spears and In Sync--well, isn't it OBVIOUS that they've already suffered enough!
And dat's my 8 cents worth.
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