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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
 Posted - 05/07/2004 : 3:55:03 PM
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Don't we have this copyright vs. sharing conversation about once a year?
As a photographer, I have a little experience with copyright, and the copyright is owned as soon as the work is created, i.e. written down, recorded, whatever, in permanent form. Mailing to yourself is a proof of copyright date, but so are other things like notarizing or just writing the word or symbol for copyright on the work and dating it.
Registering your copyright with the U.S. Copyright Office assures you of two things: lawyers fees from the defendent in a copyright lawsuit, and up to$30,000 damage award per infringment (per copying).
Owning a copyright without registration doesn't mean you can't enforce it, but you'll have a hard time getting a lawyer to take your case and there won't be monetary damages. You can force someone to stop using your work, though.
That's the legal line.
Sharing a song around the lanai should always be fair game, though. Sharing the TAB or homemade sheet music via cyberspace is a gray area because no profit is being made and the sharing may or may not dilute the marketability of the original work.
Forbidding sharing because, as Mark said, because it's the artist's choice to teach someone a song, is like putting the genie back in the bottle. Once someone buys a CD and pops it in the player, controlling their reaction is not practical.
When I sit down with my guitar and play a song, I don't stop to think if the composer wants me to sing it (performing for money is a different matter). Music has a life of its own and will be heard, embraced and shared if it touches the heart. That, along with royalties and profits, is a reward for creating a good song.
Jesse Tinsley |
Edited by - hapakid on 05/07/2004 4:30:52 PM |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2004 : 6:47:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hapakid
You can force someone to stop using your work, though.
That's the legal line.
Sharing a song around the lanai should always be fair game, though. <snip>
When I sit down with my guitar and play a song, I don't stop to think if the composer wants me to sing it (performing for money is a different matter).[/br]
If I recall correctly, once a piece of music has been recorded or published, it's (legally) available for anyone to sing or record (with payment of applicable fees through ASCAP/BMI/SESAC/Harry Fox Agency/private collection mechanisms), via a "mandatory license." I find it hard to imagine a composer *not* wanting others to perform her material, but if that were to happen, there would be no legal means to enforce the prohibition. An artist who wanted exclusive access to his material would have to refrain from publication and recording. Too weird to contemplate.
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2004 : 8:46:21 PM
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I think you're right about licensing being available for virtually every song. It seems to me that there is a mechanism for some songs, usually new popular songs, where they can be held back for recording by another artist, while it's still in popular release on the market.
But everything else is fair game.
I've talked to a lot of local guys who play in cover bands. When I ask them about paying royalties to play "Honky Tonk Woman" or "Brown Eyed Girl" and they look at me like I'm crazy. Virtually no one pays for anything on the informal cover band circuit, but I think it's great that Hawaiian music lovers, like those found at Taropatch.net, try to do the right thing by island artists.
Unfortunately, as Keith pointed out with "Kuhio Bay", it's hard to find licensing information on Hawaiian songs, the lineage of which is clouded by the passage of time and many different people claiming ownership in some way.
Jesse Tinsley |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 01:48:55 AM
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The odd looks might have to do with the fact that musicians are not responsible for paying the license fees for live performance--the venues are. That's why ASCAP and BMI send their arm-twisters--I mean, representatives--to bars, coffee houses, restaurants, and so on. They assess fees (based on seating capacity, number of shows, phase of the moon, whatever), and payment allows performance of any material that agency represents.
Distribution of the fees, however, has no connection with whatever is actually performed in the venues--there's some arcane formula based on radio airplay, which means (if the composers I've heard talk about it are right) that those who don't get mainstream airplay are SOL. This issue gets hashed over periodically on various music-oriented listservs. The anecdotes are interesting, but there's a shortage of hard facts and figures, and I keep poking around trying to figure out who's really benefitting, and at whose expense. Fortunately I'm a freelance writer, so I get screwed right up front and don't have to worry about being exploited by Big Media *or* downloaders.
BTW, I can't find anything about exceptions to mandatory licensing of published material for cover recordings or performance, though with the kind of changes that have already been made to traditional copyright ideas (that is, the Digital Millenium act), I wouldn't be surprised to find that Engulf & Devour has tightened its grip on us.
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 04:02:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Russell Letson
I find it hard to imagine a composer *not* wanting others to perform her material, but if that were to happen, there would be no legal means to enforce the prohibition. An artist who wanted exclusive access to his material would have to refrain from publication and recording.
Sorry Mark, but I have to agree with Russell. While nobody else has a right to profit from another artist's song without their permission, or to deprive an artist of profits that are rightfully theirs, once a piece of music reaches others in any way, shape, or form it enters the public consciousness and people are going to learn it, perform it, and teach it to others whether the original artist wants them to or not. That's just the nature of music. (Take careful note, however, of my two caveats.) |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 05/08/2004 04:06:01 AM |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 2:58:10 PM
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You're right, Russell, about radio airplay and recordings being the two sources of income for songwriters. When I worked in radio, we would have designated three-day periods in which we would have to write down every song played and its licensing group (BMI/ASCAP/SESAC mainly). Those records would be sent to the various licensing agencies for analysis.
This is all a lot of trivia, though. It's unlikely that we'll need this information in our informal music circles.
I think we should encourage loyalty to island artists and outlets (like Auntie Maria), but beyond that, let's let people share written versions of the music we all love so much. Getting our panties in a bunch about homemade TAB sheets seems very un-Hawaiian. In Hawaiian history, music has been freely given away and shared and very few lawyers were involved.
Some might argue that the lax enforcement of copyright/ownership meant that great musicians and composers never made a living with Hawaiian music. But a lot did, like Johnny Noble, Johnny Almeida, Don Ho, etc., and some current musicians, too.
And for the record, the Digital Millenium Copyright Act stinks.
Jesse Tinsley
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paani
Aloha
Australia
4 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 9:42:56 PM
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hey people, just read this whole thread and what I get from it is that to learn a song you basically have to tab it yourself. hmmm. dont know about anyone else but I am not a natural musician and I could listen to punahele all day and not be able to figure it out. thank goodness I have it in a book and by painstakingly working it out over time I am now able to play it. the fact that I can play it to a fashion is still a daily miracle to me and I have enjoyed every minute of working it out. my point is that I am not yet able to work songs out by ear and yet I love the music and have been a bit frustrated with the lack of available instruction (when I lived in southern CA) and the lack of tabs out there.
the thing that first attracted me to hawaiian music was the ohana aspect of it. sitting around a fire and playing with friends, sharing tunes, teaching each other, the fact that the kids knew the same songs as their folks, unreal, at the heart of it all is sharing the music and the sharing sometimes involves tabs to remind you of a turnaround or an opening. its strange to think that I might ask someone here for a tab to a certain song and they would say "yeah I got it but, uh yeah I cant give it to you, sorry"
Im sure I mirror many of your own historys here in that I have spent more than I should have on hawaiian cds over the years, we all own every Ray Kane, Sonny, Leonard, Ledward etc. cd that exists. we all go to every hawaiian music show that comes within a two hour drive of where we live, we own nearly every instruction book or tape ever printed and we would all gladly buy tabs from artists if they were for sale. we support hawaiian music with our hearts and our wallets and we do it cause it touches us and being able to play a little slack key on a starry night with your friends is as good as it gets. so share. do you really think that the artists would be upset that we are so taken with their tunes that we want to share them with our friends. hey I didnt mention lawyers once. |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2004 : 12:01:26 AM
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| I think you'll find that the primary argument here is that open distribution of tabs ala Napster sharing of music is a definite no-no, while helping friends to learn new songs isn't. If you're looking for a particular tab and say so here then chances are pretty good you'll end up connecting with someone who can help you out. If, on the other hand, you're wondering why TaroPatch doesn't have an online directory filled with tabs you can download then reading through this thread will give you your answer! |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2004 : 2:58:41 PM
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Exactly!
Maybe when this topic comes up again next year a summary like Craig's can be posted right off to get the context going.
When I see someone asking for a song and I've TAB'd it, I will frequently use their link to contact them. I think this is a very reasonable way to keep this site safe and share things. I have, however, gotten feedback that my TABS were not useful because I most often just write out a "lead sheet" with perhaps one or two more difficult passages worked out to remind me of how to play them. (A lead sheet is just the melody with some indication of the chords.) In other words, you still have to work out your own arrangement. I don't always have the time or energy to work up a tape to go with the TAB.
I think it is important to learn from Masters' recordings, and every now and then I want to play something that someone else worked out. That said, I think it's more important to develop the musical skills necessary to come up with our own arrangements. This does require some work, but it is not as difficult as it first appears. You do have to be willing to make a lot of mistakes along the way. You also have to be willing to "play your own voice." I love the playing of Sonny, Ozzie, Keola, Steve Sano, Dennis, Martin and others -- and I'm coming to terms with the fact that I will never be able to play (and stylize) as well as they will. All I can do is play (and stylize) as well as I myself can. That's starting to be OK with me.
In fact, maybe that's closer to the heart of the matter anyway.
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paani
Aloha
Australia
4 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2004 : 6:07:41 PM
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| I agree with both of you but have a read of marks last post, thats where I got the impression that it wasnt okay to share in any manner. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2004 : 7:43:27 PM
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| Unless I understand it wrong, Mark has requested that we not share TABS of his original work or his arrangements. That doesn't necessarily apply to others have worked out of music not written by Mark. My understanding is that Keola doesn't want his TABS shared without previous approval. Personally, I don't want anyone passing out TABS that I have done without my approval (which I readily give - just want to make sure that people who give and get the TABS agree to not post them on the net.) |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2004 : 8:07:08 PM
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| Keola's pretty good about giving approval if you email him, as is Ozzie. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Jeff Watkins
Aloha
37 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2004 : 3:36:44 PM
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Aloha 'auinela
I have an idea that may benefit all of us wanting access to slack key music without violating copyright rules or depriving artists of their due income. Establish in TaroPatch a site where music is listed for purchase by individual work (or books). Then, we can order as many individual pieces (or books) as we want for personal use, instead of having to buy a whole book IF its available, and the artists get their money.
If the Hapa book or Leanard Kwan's book is either unavailable or available at very high prices (say $60 on eBay), then Uncle Ray's admonition to share what we know to guard against loss is useless. If the tab for Moses Kahumoku "Pohakuloa" is unavailable but somebody can write it, then put a copyright on it and make it available for all of us to buy, with the money going to Moses. TaroPatch can charge a reasonable fee for this valuable service.
Please don't let bureaucracy and elitism stop the sharing of Hawaiian slack key music. This is not the spirit of aloha nor good for the art form.
My apologies to all who have thought of this before. Lets make it happen because it wil benefit all of us and the art form.
Mahalo nui loa
A hui hou
Jeff Watkins
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2004 : 6:10:14 PM
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Jeff, your idea is fine as long as the copyright holder for each tab gives permission. That assumes, however, that you can 1) find the copyright holder, 2) get their permission, 3) agree on a price for each tab, and 4) agree on someone to administer the sale of the tabs (some artists may want to handle it themselves, some may want to approve who does it, some may not care as long as they receive their payment). That's a lot of work...are you volunteering?!
My experience has been that 1) the copyright holder is not always easy to locate, 2) not all copyright holders can or will give permission, 3) prices will range all over the place (free to $20 a song is what I've run across), and 4) some copyright holders will want to handle it themselves on a case-by-case basis while others won't care.
Also, FWIW, in the case of books the copyright is usually held by the publisher, not the artist, who usually has no interest in going through the hassle of selling things on a piecemeal basis. One exception to this is Ray Kane's book...the copyright holder is the author, Reri Tava Jobe. Uncle Ray doesn't have any original copies of the book and won't make copies to give away or sell because he doesn't own the copyright. Reri won't give permission to make copies and won't sell the copyright either (I've spoken to her and tried to do both). Why? I have no idea and, amusingly enough, neither does she. But that's just one example of the complexity of trying to deal with making this stuff available. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 05/10/2004 11:48:41 PM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2004 : 6:16:02 PM
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Sorry Mark, but I have to agree with Russell. While nobody else has a right to profit from another artist's song without their permission, or to deprive an artist of profits that are rightfully theirs, once a piece of music reaches others in any way, shape, or form it enters the public consciousness and people are going to learn it, perform it, and teach it to others whether the original artist wants them to or not.
Whoa there, big fella...
I most certainly do want you to learn and play my songs. & arrangements... heck, I write a lot of instructional books, remember? Nor do I care if you TAB 'em out from the records--- as I said, it's the best way to learn. All I ask is that you don't pass around the TAB without my permission... just as I won't pass around Ozzie's, or Keola's, or anyone else's.
Have I been monetarily affected by TAB sharing and music duplicating? You bet. Big time.
But, no, there really isn't a huge problem if you do happen to pass one or two TABs around.
Even better would be to invite your buds over for a jam... and let everyone learn it their own way.
What really matters is that you play music from your heart.
cheers,
Mark
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