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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2004 : 01:32:23 AM
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My question:
How do we encourage some of our best teachers and creators to sell, market, and allow access to their extant but unpublished written work.
For example, Ozzie distributes different tabs at his workshops that to my knowledge haven't been published. Many players here in the taropatch would gladly pay for good tabs or printed music.
And if Keola, Mark, Led, George, or others have tabbed or accurate musical notation for any of their tunes--we have the plastic!
OK, I know some tunes are not well marked for rhythm or need some explaination/recordings to accurately decipher--but we still are interested.
Obviously some tunes may have publishing restrictions, copyright issues, and other considerations; but we still want more stuff!
And subsequently, why do some books disappear and not get re-released...
I paid $40 for Leonard Kwan's book on ebay, and his family doesn't make a cent off this "collectable" market...Then there's the Hapa songbook (out of print). And there's probably a google more of similar lost knowledge!
G
Rave on Brah...
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 02:52:40 AM
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I find the whole area of TAB to be quite an interesting topic and this thread may be a good place to explore how people feel. I must admit that I grab as much TAB as I can get my hands on, but at the same time I don't use it that much except to get a feel for a song. Personally, I have a hard time learning a song until I make it my own. I don't want to play Punahele exactly like Ray Kane. I want to play Punahele like Dave Nye, being ever grateful that Uncle Ray wrote the song. The most Ki Ho Alu I've learned is from John Keawe and Kevin Brown who teach the old fashioned way and don't have a lick of TAB out there at all. There's nothing like playing all night, many nights in a row with Kevin to learn how to play (especially in Drop C). I've learned many of Keola's pieces by heart from his TAB only to listen to many concerts where he never plays the same piece the same way; not even close to the TAB.
I'm very fortunate that I met a man at the first Aloha Music Camp (2001) that I play with almost every week. I can put a piece of TAB in front of him and he can play almost at concert speed the first time through. (He also writes TAB) But, it wasn't until we limited our use of TAB (spending 4 nights with him and Kevin didn't hurt either) that we really started making progress and actually started playing.
I guess I'm saying that for me TAB isn't the end all solution. This tradition wasn't passed down with TAB. Go play with somebody. Share your songs, licks and knowledge. Go buy an album like "The Ray Kane Band" (a total misnomer) where everything is in Taro and just comp to it. Next thing you know is you've learned 10 songs.
Mark Nelson once told me that he played `Opihi Moe Moe for someone who said that it sounded just like Leonard, but can you play it like Mark Nelson (sorry if I miss-quoted you Mark). Keola has always preached to me to "Find your own voice".
TAB is important. Keeping the most elegant guitar artform is more so. Whatever gets us there is right.
Ke Akua Pu
Dave |
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duke
Lokahi
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 03:52:18 AM
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Very well put, Dave. Mahalo.
Duke |
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 12:20:43 PM
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You know the old joke,
Q-"How do you get a guitar player to stop playing?"
A-"Put sheet music in front of him."
There's no poo-pooing from me. TAB is very important to me for the same reasons you stated. Sometimes playing a song EXACTLY is the expression of my own voice and is way cooler than anything else I could come up with. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Jay sounding like Ray OR Jay sounding like Jay. Either way, just play. (Song lyrics anyone?)
Mahalo for your insights.
Dave |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 12:49:35 PM
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aloha all,
i think that the objective is to keep learning - sometimes tab helps, and sometimes it gets in the way. for me, getting away from tab was the beginning of learning the music rather than the notes. but, tab is a great substitute for learning the style of someone without actually sitting down with them.
right now i'm working on "lei hinahina", listening to john almeida's recording. i'm seeing if those awesome steel guitar licks sound good in kiho`alu. it also has what i think is the best chorus i've come across in any hawaiian song:
He aloha lâ he aloha
He aloha ku`u lei hinahina
E lei `ia maila e ka `u`a lâ
E ka mâ`uka`uka hoe hewa
Beloved, beloved indeed
Beloved is my hinahina lei
Now being worn by someone who is useless
Who can't even paddle a canoe
e malama pono,
keith
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chunky monkey
Ha`aha`a
USA
1022 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 1:29:57 PM
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| For me, the TAB issue is a right-left brain thing. As a beginner, I'm often insulted by the "Make the music your own argument". If I could make music on my own, I wouldn't be a programmer for a living. I often use TAB to at least get started, or for new ideas. Historically, I've been unable to "create" music and need some direction, often just a lick or two or a suggestion from a friend. I've listened to Keith's results of his approach to learning the music and I'm envious. I can't do that very well, so I lean on TAB as a way to progress. |
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Konabob
`Olu`olu
USA
928 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 1:53:00 PM
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Brilliant, Jaydub! Usually when you offer to do the work for someone, they appreciate the favor. I just googled "software +tab + guitar" and found this web site: http://www.tabledit.com - where you can download a "Free Demo"!
I was wondering if any of you have tab software that you like, and what you like or dislike about it.
I don't know how to read tab, but I have noticed that people who rely heavily on tab are (how to put it bluntly?) not as much fun to kanikapila with. Dennis Kamakihi was a George Kahumoku's in June. I was busy with Bob Brozman when he did his class, but my wife sat in on it. Dennis explained that in the Hawaiian tradition, you learn by playing music with your family and friends. She told me that there was a group of guitarists in a circle and Dennis played a simple tune and then went around the circle and had each person try taking a 'lead' while he played rhythm. She (my wife) says that not one person could do it! Dennis put down his guitar and went directly into storytelling instead.
I cannot sit down and play any Dennis Kamakahi note for note, but I have jammed with the brother, and it is way fun just to cut loose. I also have a video of Gordon playing fiddle with Dennis Kamakahi and - you know this Gordon - you kicked butt with that fiddle. No tabs required, right?
Tab when you must, but jam when you can!
Aloha,
-Konabob |
Konabob's Walkingbass - http://www.konawalkingbass.com
Taropatch Steel - http://www.konaweb.com/konabob/
YouTube - http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=Konabob2+Walkingbass |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 2:33:58 PM
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There really is a major difference between cultural learning styles -- neither one is "objectively better" but like all cultural differences, the mix usually gets much richer if the two sides learn from each other.
From my perspective -- as a musician trained in traditional teaching methods which are based in reading music - I come at playing from a different place than Hawaiians trained in a traditional method using aural (and visual) learning. I first learned to "properly play" my instrument -- that is get good technique and learn how to properly play other people's music - based upon reading it. I was not introduced to improvisation until I had learned lots of scales and even more chords. It is a way that has successfully taught thousands of musicians who make beautiful music, even, by the way, compose some and improvise.
When I started weekly lessons with George Kahumoku, he was very frustrated by my not being able to pick things up very quickly in the "look and learn" aproach. He let me video record his playing and take it home to study it. What I also learned in doing that was that George hardly ever played the same song twice the same way. We did enter into a dialogue that lasted about a year and I was able to learn a lot. I also think George became a better teacher 'cause he expanded his own skillls/approaches, stretched himself and in the process facilitated my learning.
Hawaiians don't come upon "look and learn" naturally. They learn how to do that. However, it's typically so much a part of their culture that the learning is somewhat transparent, the idea of the gold fish/fishbowl. (I spoke with many Hawaiian musicians who told me their early learning had lots of trial and error and was often frustrating.) If you're lucky, when you are young, that style of learning can become a game. (An spect of play certainly helps most learning, which is what we do with music anyway - play it.) These same skills can be taught to people who come from different learning approaches. They must, however, be taught to most people. I believe it is the job of a teacher, and the hallmark of a good one, to be able to take a student where they begin, and teach them how to get the the next "level." George did that for me. In the process he helped me learn somewhat how to "look and learn." I'm glad I have that skill, but frankly, I still prefer beginning a new song from a lead sheet. I get upset when I hear of teachers who do not have the patience to work with people at their level and move them the next step.
As to taking turns at kanikapila -- we're also dealing with different cultural perspective here also. Most of us haole get embarassed when we make mistakes. We are conditioned not to make mistakes -- to do things Right. Most Hawaiian musicians I know - when they make a mistake (and all musicians do) they smile or shrug their shoulders and move on. That "no big thing" approach is also a learned approached -- through years of hanging around people whose attitude about that stuff is "no big deal." Add to that the fear most hoale players have of approaching a new style or new instrument, especially in front of a respected teacher (Heck, first time I played in front of Keola, my hands were shaking so bad I couldn's even play one note, but he graciously got me through that.) -- Well, in my opinion, based upon admittedly insufficient information, Dennis did those people a big disservice in switching to talk story. He would have helped them a lot more by letting their fear and self-awareness be "OK" in the room, and coaxing them along to even try a three or four note "variation" or "solo." Helping them get a start at a new way.
Is the goal of instruction helping people become better musicians and sharing an art form in the process? If so, the teacher needs to take each student where they are at and help open new doors for them.
Now, probably none of this applies to folks who are happy to learn 4 chords, sit around a campfire and strum along. Nothing wrong with that - in fact sometiomes I envy that - but most of the time I'm happy with trying to work out an arrangement before I go public with it. Some learning is deeply ingrained.
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 2:53:05 PM
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Konabob,
I remember an Aloha Music Camp 2002 kanikapila when you showed up with that funny looking bass of yours. I was new to Slack Key and couldn't keep up, but being an ex-60s bass player, I grabbed your bass, retuned to standard and played for what seemed like hours. That session was the beginning of my understanding the structure of Hawaiian music.
BTW: I like the program G7 by Sibelius. You can even scan music you like and convert it to MIDI. From there you can TAB out the song.
Raymond,
Even with a well rehearsed song, my hands still sweat and my knees still knock when I sit down to play for Keola. In the end the Master's blessing soothes it all out. And yes, Dennis should have continued to teach.
Great replies by all. Mahalo!!!!!!!!!
Dave |
Edited by - `Ilio Nui on 08/12/2004 3:12:16 PM |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 3:10:57 PM
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Let me throw in a thought in reply to the original question:
"How do we encourage some of our best teachers and creators to sell, market, and allow access to their extant but unpublished written work."
I'm not being a smartass here, even if it seems like it. The obvious answer is to start your own music publishing business, figure out all the details of producing this material for sale, then make business arrangements with the artists to become a publisher of their materials.
Fran
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E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 3:13:28 PM
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Konabob, I prefer TablEdit (after trying everything I could get my hands on) for the exact reason jaydub prefers PowerTab...I think printed tab looks better out of TablEdit! (Granted, I've tweaked the print settings to where I like them.) TablEdit is also easier to enter manipulate notes, especially once you get use to the keyboard shortcuts.
With respect to tab and learning, I don't think the problem is with tab itself so much as the way tab is generally used. You can use tab to teach anything, from complete songs to simple exercises. It's really nothing more than a written way to represent a guitar being played. The problem is that almost all the slack key tab out there represents one way to play a song. Learning from this tab is no different than sitting in front of a live player and having them play the same song over and over the same way each time. You'll learn from that, but all you'll learn is how to play that song that way.
For those of us who learn better from tab than from watching someone play (myself included), what we need is tabbed lessons in kanikapila if that makes sense. I agree wholeheartedly with Raymond when he says that George would have better served the people at the camp by encouraging them to relax and showing them ways to do what he was asking them to do. Give me a CD with some rhythm tracks and tabbed "sketches" of how to solo along with them and I'd be in slack key heaven. I know a lot of others who would be too. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 08/12/2004 3:14:33 PM |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 3:20:09 PM
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Raymond's post is very, very sensible. My own take on it is that we shouldn't get too wound up over the tab/ear-eye issue, because it's not really a right/wrong issue at all but a matter of 1) different approaches to getting (in the senses of both "acquiring" and "understanding") the music and 2) slightly different approaches to what *constitutes* getting the music.
The divide that I find most interesting (because I see it in almost every genre of music I'm involved with) is the second one. In gypsy jazz/hot club music, for example, there are many players who try to memorize Django's solos, and others who focus on replicating precisely all the techniques employed by gypsy players. The danger in both cases is that the means becomes the end, our (natural and generally useful) capacity for obsessive-compulsive behavior gets out of hand, and the music-as-music doesn't get got. Outside of classical traditions (which focus on received texts and make nearly impossible demands on our abilities), attention to technical detail or precise replication of an original performance is a good servant that makes a poor master. And while Hawaiians clearly value the ability to reproduce a respected elder's style or to play a song correctly, they also seem to value absorbing and adapting what's gone before and making it one's own, and eventually adding something individual to the tradition. I recall Ozzie emphasizing that point in a conversation a few years back.
So tab is a useful tool, a way of recording and storing aspects of a piece of music, and there's no way we can un-invent it, nor is there any point in not taking advantage of it. But unless one really wants to treat the slack key tradition as a classical canon of fixed texts and just-so performances, tabs are learning tools and exemplars that we absorb, deconstruct, and then build on. That's how a living tradition works.
And I'll add to Fran's suggestion about the "original question": figure out a way of adding hours to the day and energy to tired folks' metabolisms. Even when materials already exist, preparing them for publication is a demanding and exhausting job--and if the market (trans.: possible reward) is small, it's hard to put together the time and energy to tackle the project. (Ask me how much I'm going to make on the Aloha Guitar book, and I don't know whether to laugh or cry.)
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Konabob
`Olu`olu
USA
928 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 3:28:32 PM
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Dave,
My slack key bass has taught me more about music than anything else in my life. It has opened some really huge doors for me! Four years ago I couldn't play anything, now I am in a Hawaiian Trio (http://www.konaweb.com/hana_aloha) and get invited to play with some really fine musicians - shamelessly! I like Raymond's comment; "Most Hawaiian musicians I know - when they make a mistake (and all musicians do) they smile or shrug their shoulders and move on. " It is so true. I was in Honolulu last month and watched Ledward playing bluegrass with Rob Ickes and Tim Stafford. Led was never trained in bluegrass but he was trained to "jus press", so he did. Rob Ickes asked him how he got to be so good at bluegrass. His reply: "I make plenty of mistakes, but I just make em sound good..(fit of laughter)". That's what makes him such a great guy to play with.
-Konabob
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Konabob's Walkingbass - http://www.konawalkingbass.com
Taropatch Steel - http://www.konaweb.com/konabob/
YouTube - http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=Konabob2+Walkingbass |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 3:50:47 PM
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I just want to add one thing about the TAB --
and I think my experience is similar to most people's,
and in the process underline what Russell said ...
Doing TAB takes a lot of time, it's not the most enjoyable use of that time, and to prepare it for "publication" even takes more time ,,, there's not much fiscal reward in it, nor is there a whole lot of "social" reward. I work off off TAB "lead sheets" to jog my memory. When I'm working out an arrangement, I will use a very idiosyncratic system for myself (which I won't share 'cause I'm too embarrassed.) Most of the TAB I have is "notation" that I share with students during live lessons - as learning aides for them. The thought of working out a complicated TAB to sell to 12 - 15 people at a reasonable price is just too much. (Of course I could charge $15 or so a pop like stropes does, but I think it is outrageous to charge $15 for one song.) |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 3:53:06 PM
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raymond,
as usual, you're careful thoughts and analysis inspire even deeper thinking...
the "listen and learn" approach does take learning. it isn't a natural way to learn. it has its good and bad points.
what i'd like to see: - terry's excellent suggestion of "common turnarounds". there are licks that are widely used, specific to a tuning. working through these would give one a better understanding of the music. for example, i've been thinking of tabbing out gabby's "wai o ke aniani" just for this purpose: it's a minitutorial on turnarounds.
- tutorials on different tunings. reid's excellent tutorial on "atta's C" is the gold standard here. i would love to have a similar tutorial on a moana loa tuning and open D tuning (to name two tunings i love and want to learn). a tab of ray kane's "popoki slack key" would be a possible substitute. learning "ke`ala's mele from tab gave me a good start on drop C. (hey mark, think an instructor could take this on for next year's AMC?
 ) - more time working with creative folks on composition, one on one. i did this with mark nelson and with keoki kahumoku a few years ago, at a point where i wasn't really educated enough to take advantage of what i was shown. even so, the execise of presenting a song i was working on and seeing what they would do was instructive.
aloha,
keith
(whose ipo can paddle a canoe, at least...) |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 4:32:40 PM
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If I may add my two cents.....
In the first place, there is nothing uniquely "Hawaiian" in the concept of learning by ear and improvisation. It's the way of all traditional folk music, in all cultures and for all time. Written music is a johnny-come-lately. Valuable, yes. No question. But recent -- particularly in the slack key world.
Nor is there anything uniquely "western" in reading music or not being able to jam. Its simply one modality of learning.
Secondly, the "problem" of not being able to kanikapila -- or jam, or play along, or whatever you want to call it -- is common to every single situation I have seen wherein 'paper trained" musicians attempt to play in a session.
I've seen it in Irish music (yes, Irish music is full of improvisation -- though not in the way you may expect); bluegrass, country, cajun, zydeco, swing, jazz, rock (!), Hawaiian.... and on and on ... and on and on. And yes, I have seen people sit down at a session with TAB in front of them... it's endemic in the dulcimer world, sadly.
So, what's the problem if you don't want to learn how to do it? Just this -- like in many of the kinds of music mentioned, there is a huge social music aspect in Hawaiian music. Not being able to participate means that you are missing out on what can be a richly rewarding musical conversation.
Of course it is your choice whether or not you want to participate. Just like it is your choice whether or not you want to cop someone's arrangement down to the thirty-second note triplet. That is a legitimate, and time-honored, form of musical expression. No one will think less of you for doing this -- though, to be totally honest with yourself, you'd have to admit that you always bring something to the plate. The reason Keola plays like he does is because of who is is, what he's seen, etc. When I play one of his arrangements, even if I play it note-for-note, it's gonna sound like me. 'Cause of who I am and what I've seen. Ditto for you... you cannot help do anything else.
Now if improv is a problem for you, and you want to do something about it, then it ain't all that hard to learn how to be musically free. Ooh, now that's a scary concept... freedom. But it ain't completely untructured. Here are some hints:
1) Take the time to figure out the structure of the songs you are learning by TAB. What's the intro/outro? What's the melody? Is there a chorus? How often does the chorus appear? Is there a modulation? In other words, what's the meal, and what's the dressing.....
Several years back a friend showed me his adaptation of Keola's video arrangement of Ku'u Lei Awapuhi Melemele. It was very nicely played -- expect that he played every part of the arrangement except for the actual melody of the song!
2) What's the chord structure? Believe it or not, it's a little known musical fact that a song retains the same chord structure even during the improv sections!!
(As with all rules, this one gets broken... it's fairly common in kanikapila to change the chord structure slightly when playing a solo. In this case, listen!)
Which gets us to:
3) Listen! When you play in a group, you need to hear what each and every person in the group is doing. If you can't hear, you are either playing too loud, or not sitting close enough. This goes triple true for when it's time for someone to "take one." If you are in the back up role, drop your volume and note-intensity (as in, Keep it Simple!). Offer musical support.
Ditto when you step out -- listen to what you are saying in reference to the rest of the players. Yes, you will make mistakes -- we call them "clams" ..... to quote the closing lines of Buckaroo Banzai, "So what? Beeg deal..."
Sorry to burst any bubbles, but no one has ever died from a bad note. There have been a couple of lead guitarists I've wanted to shoot, yes. But spontaneously exploding from a misplaced C# in a Taro Patch tune???? Nope. Won't happen.
Here's another bit of perspective: none of us are that important!! That's right... it really don't mean sh*t to a tree if we play a wrong note!!
OK -- so how do you learn to improvise? Same way you learn to swim. Jump in, get wet, splash around. If you are in a kani kapila and the song has gone around a dozen times and someone asks you to "take one" -- just play the chord forms as they come up, and fingerpick the notes in the chords. Seriously -- that's a perfectly acceptable way to play a solo in Hawaiian music. It sounds great, it's easy, and you are on your way to hot dog status.
Try taping yourself playing something -- then play along with it. Practice throwing in descending runs on the five chord (that's D7 in the key of G).
Try to create musical phrases that breathe -- remember my comment about "a musical concersation?" Think about how the phrases are arranged in the melody... I can guarantee you that it ain't 32 bars of steady 8th notes. So you might try to grab the same notes and play them with a different rhythm -- or grab differnt notes (sticking to the scale in question is always a good idea...) and play them with the same phrasing as the melody.
Get to know which notes "go with" each chord. No need to stick to chord tones for a solo -- but try to have passing tones (the non-chord tones) fall on weaker beats.
It goes without saying that you ought to know how to play the basic chords in several inversions. Heck, you need to know this just to play TAB. Chances are you know how to do it, and don't know that you know how to it. Which gets back to my point about thinking about what's going on.
When all else fails, I offer you the Joe Warnick School of Chromaticism (Joe denies ever having said this, by the way): "When in doubt, play chromatically... but PLAY WITH FEELING!"
Yow, sorry to say so much. As you can tell, this is one of my "buttons." I have been teaching folk music of one kind or another since, like, 1970. And this issue comes up all the time. No, there is nothing inherent to any individual, group, culture or race that makes them able, or unable, to play informal, social music. It's simply a matter of wanting to learn, and then making that desire happen.
TAB is good. It is a wonderful way to learn fingerings, to learn unfamiliar music, and to remember a songs you have forgotten. I write TAB. I use TAB to teach, and to learn. You will not hear me run down TAB... But, as I tell all my students: TAB is to music what a road map is to a journey... It'll get ya there, but ya gotta hang your head out the window and stick out your tongue to feel the wind flapping your ears sometimes.
As for the "unpublished" TAB questioned that started this whole thing:
Keola offers online lessons via his website. I imagine others will start doing the same thing. I've been considering offerring TAB for sale on a one-off basis from my website, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Soon come.
So, how much would you be willing to pay?
We now return you to your regular programming.
Mark
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