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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
 Posted - 09/01/2004 : 7:20:57 PM
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Howdy, all.
I have been following the thread on workshop skill and ratings on the BAHMI thread. I think it is an important topic -- hence I'm starting it anew here.
The issue has come up again and again -- in each and every musical scene I know. And inevitably, it all comes down to this: when you are new to something, you pursue it passionately. And so you want to take each and every single opportunity to learn.
Inevitably, that means lots of folks take workshops above or below their actual playing level. And so, inevitably, the organizer of the event has to impose some sort of structure on a musical world that, by it's nature, is self structuring.
So what the heck do I mean by self-structured? Just this: in traditional "listen with your eyes" musical learning systems, you (the student) will progress as fast as you can. You will sit in on musical experiences and glean what you can... sure, someone will take you aside and show a lick or two... but basically you can't run with the big dogs until you learn how.
And how do you learn how? By listening, and trying, and practicing, and thinking about your instrument, and experiemnting with it... in short, by taking responsibility for your learning. And doing lots and lots (and lots and lots) of playing with the little dogs...who will become the next generation of big dogs.
You are not supposed to be able to play with the heavy players when you are first starting out.. that is a privilege that you earn by showing yourself capable. Think jazz "cutting contests," or Irish seisuns where the tunes get increasingly fast and convoluted and obscure... or Led grinning as he proceeds to devastate the guitar neck (and the egos of anyone stoopid enuf to think music is a competive sport).
It ain't elitist.. it's about excellence. Traditional music is as good as it is because it demands that we aspire to be as good as we can be.
Now, what happens when you try to teach traditional music in a more formalized setting? Just what we are seeing here. Folks want structure... or, more to the point, they want someone to impose structure on those other people in the workshop who are bumming their trip.
Before I offer some constructive solutions, please allow me a little rant: C'mon, folks... do you really think you are an "advanced/intermediate" slack key guitarist if you don't know what chords you are playing? Or can't play a song while keeping up a steady bass with your thumb? Do you really think you belong in a beginning ‘ukulele class if you can play dominant 13th inversions up and down the neck?? More to the point, do you really need someone from the outside to "rate" your playing... or tell you that you are holding every one else back?
Apparently, yes. (OK, I feel better now...)
Since I struggle witth this issue at the Aloha Camp, I came up with the following list. Which I am putting up for your review and comments. It appears on the Aloha Music Camp's FAQs page http:www.alohamusiccamp.com/faqs.html
Who makes the decision whether I'm a beginner or intermediate guitarist/dancer?
Be honest with yourself – nobody is a better judge.
Please don’t sit in on workshops above your level. This forces the instructor to teach at the level of the least experienced student and is unfair to both the instructor and everyone else in the class. If we notice this happening, you will be asked to leave the workshop.
Here are some hints for ‘ukulele players:
* Beginner – Ranging from "knows what the instrument looks like" to "plays a few simple songs."
* Intermediate – You should be able to play and sing in time and in tune. Know several strums, maybe some melodic licks. You are not afraid to try new things.
* Intermediate/Advanced – You can play chord inversions up the neck, know how to transpose, can improvise a little. Reading notation or TAB is a plus.
* Expert – We hire you.
And for slack key guitar:
* Beginner – Both new guitar players and inexperienced slack key players should take the beginners' classes.
* Advanced Beginner – You can play a few slack key tunes or other finger-picked guitar styles. You play "pretty good" when no one is watching. Tuning is not a huge problem for you. You should know at least one slack key tuning. (Here's a hint: D-G-D-G-B-D low to high. Taro Patch.) You are ready to move into playing simple solos.
* Intermediate – You can play in time and in tune, mostly. You know a few tunes in slack key style, or you are reasonably adept at Travis-picking and/or other folk or classical guitar styles. You can keep your thumb steady, mostly. You are not afraid to try new things.
* Intermediate/Advanced – You can play a fair number of slack key pieces, are familiar with several tunings, can play chords and melody and don't freak out when someone says, "Take one!" You do not have trouble keeping a steady bass with your thumb.
* Advanced – You are what we call a Big Dog. Revel in your exaltatude.
I am looking forward to your suggestions, amplifications, rants, slander, and whatever else floats your boat.
Seriously, all of us who are involved in teaching deal with this, and we all want to do a better job.
cheers,
Mark
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MahinaM
Lokahi
USA
389 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 08:04:58 AM
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Thank you Mark for defining these skill levels in a concise and realistic manner. I've been in the gray areas of the "in-between" this and that, so this helps me tremendously to know where I fit and how to proceed in future instructional settings now. I appreciate your perspective from a teacher's point of view and sharing your experiences and insight.
Mahalo!
Maggie |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 12:40:43 PM
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Hi Mark,
Your 5 division scale is pretty much right on, it seems to me. However, a few things don't seem right to me (why are you not surprised? :-)
First, an Advanced Beginner out here on the benighted East Coast, may, in fact be able to play pretty complicated solos because we can mostly only learn from Tab and we plow through the books - all the books. In fact, solo is about all we can do. We don't often have the opportunity to play with others. We know all the turnaround variations, the 3rds and the 6ths in taro patch and we know a lot of Double Slack and Leonard's C (because they are all so close to TP). We do not have the fretboard memorized in any tuning and find it hard to do bass runs. Thumb work is pretty choppy and we get paralyzed playing in front of people.
Second, again an isolated Right Coaster who is an Intermediate may know *lots* of tunes in Slack Key Style. Sarah could do 4 or 5 hours of playing and singing straight at this point, when she was playing in our living room. Although she did pretty well during her solo at AMC (you may remember it), she was absolutely terrified. She felt a little lost in the advanced class (but there were only 2 categories, remember). People who know Travis picking or other folk/classical styles can do diddly in Slack Key. I have several friends who are super Chetheads/thumb thumpers/rag time/blues players. And they can't make head nor tail of Slack Key - and they have tried, at least until they get frustrated and stop. They are *totally* wedded to EADGBE (although they can play in a few tunings close to that, like G6) and don't grok nahenahe/legato. They love growly sounds and try to make their guitars rattle and buzz (like their fav folk heroes). Count that one *out* - they may be able to pick up Slack Key with work and willingness *ahead of class*, but they will screw up a class big time. It happened - think Flamenco.
Third, the Intermediate/Advanced category is a good one, but the name implies that you have lumped both together for expediency. Off hand, I can't think of a better name, but you should try to think one up. Also, for this category, chord playing and melody are two different animals that we isolated folks can't put together. Slack Key is mostly chords broken up serially, or, missing at least one of the notes so that 3 fingers are fretting at one time, not 4. We have a hard time with the 4 finger chords (can only do one in C, actually - because of Ozzie). The word "chord" also drags along the meaning of either regular strumming or boom-chuck that we have no real experience of. Finger picking is *it*, although occasional strums or brushes, even on internal strings, are ornaments that we can do. Also, "Take One" is fine if the song is one we know, but if it is not, we are lacking in ear training (equating sounds with hand positions), due to our isolation, so that we can not readily understand the melody in order to improvise on it. We are perfectly able to compose originals or arrange songs on paper or directly into recorders, but we gotta think about it. It seems to me that this is a skill that needs to be taught by guys like you at this stage.
Last, I don't know what a person who is Advanced, by your definition, would be doing in a class. My definition for this category is that it is composed of the same people who take workshops with Muriel Anderson (Sarah and I observed one) or Tommy Emmanuel. These are kind of "Master Classes" and usually only have 5 or 6 people in them. They consisted of the friends I mentioned in the Intermediate comment who have been playing for 30 years, but only alone (some gig, some don't). They all compose and can memorize Chet's "Nola" after one listen. They have no use for Tab or Standard Notation. They just listen and play the thing in their own style or version of a known Style. Andy and Sarah and I know one guy from New York who does that in Slack Key.
As I said, your divisions are basically correct, but need to be expanded, or applied with more nuance.
One last thing. The "Listen, Look, Copy" (of course, "Shut da Mouth" is essential) paradigm is absolutely impossible for us unless there is one-on-one instruction. I can remember trying *hard* to figure out what one person wanted me/us to do and failing utterly and frustratingly because 1. he was picking with index and thumb only (I pick with thumb and 3 fingers) and, 2. the picking hand was curled under so that I couldn't see what string was being plucked, and 3. his guitar was capoed, so I couldn't rapidly figure out what was being fretted and, 4. I was 20 feet away and wearing bifocals. Pure Hell on Wheels.
I Take Northern Wu Taiji Quan lessons that are watch, listen and copy, but it works. I can do a 128 Posture Form (45 mins to complete)in a very rigourous style because of small class size, constant attention, questions answered, moves broken down into components of footwork and upper body work, logical explanations on several levels (martial arts purpose, body mechanics purpose, health purpose). I don't see how that can happen in a short period of time. You (me/one) gotta BE there, where people are constantly playing Slack Key and willing to help you out. I got that kind of help by Slack Key Bill in Waihe'e, when he showed me - he *showed* me personally - what I could do with a particular song and it opened up vistas for me that I could apply to other pieces. Kevin's Waihe'e jam, and the people who frequent it, should be Knighted by the King. Too bad we are rarely there.
You asked for a rant...:-)
...Reid
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 1:49:51 PM
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Thanks for your comments, Reid. As I said, this is a work in progress - as more folks chime in, I'll be able to refine things and, god-willing-and-the-creek-don't-rise, we'll all make things better for all in the future.
BTW - speaking of the one on one -- here's a little secret: that's what music camps are all about. The good stuff ain't always on the schedule. At George's camp in '99 I got about an hour and a half with Cyril, who proceeded to blow my mind -- I finally begged him to stop showing me stuff and said, "OK, I get it. What you are saying is 'Go home and learn the neck,' To which he replied, 'Yeah... and then come back and we can do something."
Last June on Moloka‘i there was a late night session with Kevin Brown. Each and every night... very small, very fun, and very, very informative. So don't give up on camps just cuz you don't like classes... that's not what they are for. Like life, the best stuff ain't scripted.
Happy playing!
M |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 2:14:51 PM
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Mark,
I think your camp setting has a major feature that one day workshops don't have -- the ability to see how a person plays and "re-assign" him/her to a more appropriate fit.
Overall, I like your general divisions cause they offer some guidelines without getting overly anal. I also support Reid's comments. --
I would like to add 2 or 3 comments --
- As to Reid's comment about arranging on paper or thinking about it first. -- Reid, if you can do it by thinking things through, you can do it on the fly -- just need to force yourself to practice that more.
- As far as "ear training" or "ear-eye-hand coordination" -- I agree that this should be taught. My experience with slack key teachers is that they learned this as kids in a process of trial and error and it is second nature to them now. However, an adult starting out is not emotionally or physically in the same place as a kid is. For one, when I start an instrument at 50 or 55, I don't have 10 years to blow to learn basics in a trial and error mode. Bottom line these are skills which can be taughht -- granted it probably takes a really good teacher to teach them -- but I think that is a resonable erxpectation to have of a situation like a week long camp.
Finally, According to your schema, and in the present state of mind, I can never "progress" beyond intermediate. I only play 1 tuning, and (at least for the last 4 years and in the present) have no desire to learn another tuning -- heck, I'm still learning more about playing in Taro Patch.
PS- I just want to repeat something I said before (I hope this doesn't "side track the discussion" -- especialy for one or 2 session workshops -- I think it is important for the instructor to give notice of what they will cover, and keep the class on track. That means if it is a beginner class, don't let the hotshots take over, and vice versa. I remember that the first 2 or 3 workshops I went to were so over my head, but I learned something by paying attention. I also attended a beginner workshop and also payed attention -- this time to my tone production -- going over simple stuff gave me a great opportunity to work on producing a more beautiful tone. AND -- my pet peeve -- instructors should silence players who keep playing when they are trying to teach. |
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Bruddah Chrispy
Lokahi
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 2:28:18 PM
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Aloha kakou,
An excellent topic!
First, I'd like to second much of what Reid said. I learned slack key from the books. Consequently, I don't know the chord changes, I just know the songs. I know the positions up and down the neck that work, but I don't know what chord they are. I believe that this is a function of having learned from tab rather than from another player. Workshops on the mainland, or ones that have a lot of mainlanders should probably take this into account. This isn't meant to be a condemnation of the workshops, as I said at the class yours was fantastic!
Second, I didn't come to Ki ho`alu from standard tuning. Although I had owned a guitar for a long time I never really learned to play it. My musical experience *is* slack key (and attendance at a lot of concerts; some of which I remember). I don't know what Travis picking is. When you told us to finger what would be an E in standard tuning I had know idea what to do. This may be my own shortcoming, but assuming a background in standard tuning may or may not be useful in the workshops. Just food for thought.
Third, I find many parallels between playing and surfing. Surfing is not karate, there are no tests, you don't get awarded belts or levels. You are a surfer because you surf, because it is a part of who you are. There will always be conditions that are beyond your ability and you should avoid them for your own safety and for the enjoyment of others. But you are still a surfer. While these classifications are no doubt going to be very useful for people deciding which classes to attend, they run the risk of becoming labels that people apply to themselves all the time. Subconciously people will think that "I shouldn't go to that kani ka pila, because I'm just a beginner guitarist".
I may just be babbling here. Too much coffee this morning.
Excellent topic.
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Aloha a hui hou,
Chris P.
There's no regrets; only good times. |
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Puna
Lokahi
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 4:34:37 PM
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In some ways, it seems that there are two different forms of "Hawaiian guitar":
The 'formal' style. Finger-picking solos, learned from tab (at least for most of us mainlanders). Practiced alone. Initially note-for-note, with great panic at the thought of tab with a blank section.
The 'informal' style. Kanikapila...kanikajammin. Anywhere from strumming a basic G chord and humming the melody to as fancy as you want. The difference is that there is usually no paper, just guitars and music.
I can do ok in the first style. I have a bunch of songs carefully memorized in a couple different tunings. In the second style, I can probably strum and sing, provided a) I know the song and b) the chords are pretty basic.
This is important to consider in the self-rating. 'Ilio nui suggested that I run with the Big Dogs at the next camp. Can't - I'm still a whelp. At least in that setting.
And, this is also important for the kumu to consider, esp. in Mark's case, when he is trying to teach people to bridge the two styles. The students (most of whom are learning the 'formal' style) NEED the tab...but are also looking to move past it.
So, as for me, I'm probably an intermediate player, at least when I've had some time alone with my tab to work out the hard parts. And I intend to start going to more group events and start strumming the chords...and maybe throw in a turn-around now and then.
Puna
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Puna |
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Puna
Lokahi
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 4:54:52 PM
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Oh, and regarding classes.
I have yet to go to a beginner class that I haven't learned something. I know I'm ahead of many of the students. But instead of acting bored and twanging on my gee-tar, I paha the waha (shut the mouth) and ho'olohe (listen). That's part of my kuleana (responsibilty) once I signed up. Or, I'll (unobstrusively as possible) show the guy wearing bifocals next to me the fingering that the teacher is doing.
Funny thing is, I've found that every single teacher knows more than me, so it was a good thing I paid attention.
And, I have yet to go to an advanced class where I haven't learned something. Perhaps at some point I lay the guitar down and just listen. All the kumu I've been with (so far) have respected that and gone on with the class. I'm not holding anyone back to my level.
This approach has worked well for me, and I think it has worked for the teachers, also. It comes down to ho'opono - respect for the kumu and for the haumana.
Puna |
Puna |
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islandboo
Lokahi
USA
237 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 5:49:06 PM
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Okay, Mark, here is my very, very humble opinion on the subject. It is more a matter of semantics b/c I'm better with words than music, which really isn't saying much. I would recommend that the folks who are new to an instrument and need to be shown the very basics (along with tips on care and feeding) be termed novices. Then a "beginner" can fit your definition of an advanced beginner (and what you call intermediate for uke), "intermediate" can be the next step up, and "advanced" can be the top tier of class. I agree with Reid that it seems unnecessary to have a separate class for guitar gods - surely they can revel in their exaltitude and be hired as instructors outside the boundaries of a classroom. They may be considered advanced players, but the bar should perhaps be lowered a bit for what is considered an advanced student.
Debbie |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2004 : 12:23:02 AM
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i think what i liked best about mark's message was his capturing the confused enthusiam that we all have when new to something.
there's going to be disagreement about the exact definitions because we all have somewhat diffferent backgrounds. so, there are holes and high spots in what we do. last year in one of keola's advanced lessons, i was really embarassed to ask how to do a tremolo - mine at the time was nonexistant, and i was hesitant to be in the advanced class - and he showed me and then admonished me not to be afraid to ask. this last class, keola saw that i wasn't playing out and, given a suggestion by dave nye, spent a little time on holding the guitar. both of these are basic, but i could tell that i wasn't the only one who benefited from these points.
it is true, though, that the most "advanced" classes are up on people's decks late at night...
aloha,
keith
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2004 : 1:57:14 PM
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Coolness. Thanks for all the insight, and please keep it up!
You may be assured that your input will be considered. As I said, we are all learning here.
cheers,
Mark
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javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2004 : 10:54:56 PM
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Lots of great input here! I probably agree most with the comments by Puna: one can learn something from most any class even if it's above or below one's playing level. And it can be done quietly without holding up others in the class who happen to be at a higher level. I also agree with Jeri that it wouldn't be right to be excluded from a class altogether. I have no problem if the instructor, as she suggests, made it clear that "students that are too advanced or too slow will be asked to be unobtrusive "observers".
Mark, yours was the very first workshop I attended and I learned a lot from both sessions. By your suggested definitions, I probably fit most closely in the intermediate level even though I too don't know what Travis picking is. I would have felt pretty bad if I had been excluded from attended the afternoon session. There were times when I was totally lost except for the chord changes and bass pattern so I just did that while trying to see what else you were doing. My problem is that I just don't play with others often enough to get better at it and I'm trying to do something about that.
Mahalo for tackling this subject and I look forward to learning more from you next time!
Aloha, |
Aloha,
John A. |
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Julie H
Ha`aha`a
USA
1206 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2004 : 01:59:41 AM
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My two cents:
I am THE perpetual beginner in slack key. But I keep attempting to go to workshops that encourage my clumsy fumbling. However, I would NEVER knowingly hold back a class or monopolize the instructor with repetitive questions. Since this is what happened at the last workshop I attended, it brought to the forefront that attendees need to be mindful of their own limitations. The instructor should have the ability to notice that someone is totally over their head and gently suggest that they may be more successful in the other class which is right down the hall, or over there in the next tent.
And yes, I did "sit in" as an observer one of Bob Brozman's advanced steel classes. But as my eyes were bulging, I never uttered a word.
Just enjoyed. Mark, I hope that the discussion will give direction to a perplexing situation.
Great taking your workshop at Lark Camp. We had a lot of fun.
Aloha, Julie |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2004 : 2:37:15 PM
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If we notice this happening, you will be asked to leave the workshop.
I think the operative words here are "this happenning" -- as in "disrupting the workshop." No one ever said you could not sit in on a workshop above/below your level -- only that you should not expect to be catered to.
If everyone did the right thing, namely showed some sensitivity, this topic would never have come up. My personal belief is that we are all adults, and therefore we are all responisble for or own actions. I have resisted posting suggestions about levels on the Aloha Camp website or in the brochures for years simply because I believe that it isn't my role to tell you what workshop to take.
However -- there has been much discussion about this subject, both in reference to the Aloha Camp, and other workshops. Hence my request for feedback -- if I have to post something, I'd like to know what to post. I'm cerrtainly not singling out any individual.
It's the same thing as the whole "name tag" issue -- we don't have name tags at the Aloha Camp. If I don't remember someone's name, I'll ask --- or call them "Dude, Sport, Bra', Sister, Aunty, or Dahlink." But some folks want name tags, and have very good reasons for wanting them. So what to do?
Many folks have asked that we come up with definitions for "beginner - advanced." We could call it "1 - 5" or "Puppy - Sprat - Big Dog" or " Earth -Moon - Mars - Venus" or any number of things. But "Beginner - Advanced Beginner - Intermediate -Advanced Intermediate and Advanced" seems to convey the most information.
And no, if you are in an advanced class, you are not expected to know everything already. Rather you should know all the skills for the earlier levels, and be ready to learn more, and at a quicker pace. The next level is called "Master Class" and we don't do those. Yet.
Thanks to everyone for participating in this discussion. I've learned a lot, & I hope to get the time to make some changes to what's on the website soon. Certainly by October first, when we begin taking reservations.
Cheers,
Mark
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2004 : 1:35:57 PM
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After due consideration, I have made a number of changes to the suggested skill level descriptions on the Aloha Camp website. I'd like to thank each and every one of you for your contributions, rants, observations and suggestions -- as I said, the purpose of this little excercise is to facilitate learning and teaching of the music we all love.
Cheers,
Mark
Here's what I posted at http://www.alohamusiccamp.com/FAQs.html
Who makes the decision whether I'm a beginner or intermediate guitarist/dancer?
Be honest with yourself - nobody is a better judge.
The pace of learning increases with each workshop level - if you find that things are moving too fast for you (and only you) then you are likely in the wrong class.
Please don’t take workshops above your level. This forces the instructor to teach at the level of the least experienced student and is unfair to both the instructor and everyone else in the class. If we notice this happening, you may be asked to leave or move to the back of the workshop so the instructor and the other students may proceed at the appropriate pace.
Here are some hints for `ukulele players:
* Beginner - Ranging from "knows what the instrument looks like" to "plays a few simple songs."
* Advanced Beginner - You can play some two and three chord songs and/or strum along. You know a few basic chords in the keys of F, C and G.
* Intermediate - You should be able to play and sing a variety of songs in time and in tune. You know several strums, maybe some simple melodic licks and the basic major, minor and dominant seventh chords in the basic `ukulele keys. You can follow a chord chart. You are not afraid to try new things.
* Intermediate/Advanced - You can play some chord inversions and barre chords up the neck, are familiar with one or two scales, know how to do simple transpositions, maybe even improvise a little. Reading notation or TAB is a plus.
* Advanced - You can transpose on the fly, play and use extended chords and double stops, know major, minor and dominant scales in several keys and can play solo pieces and/or improvise. You are looking for a challenge and can quickly grasp new things.
* Expert - We hire you.
And for slack key guitar:
* Beginner - Both brand new guitar players and inexperienced slack key players should take the beginners' classes. These classes feature lots of one-on-one instruction and move very slowly. If you already play guitar, chances are you belong in the Advanced Beginner classes.
* Advanced Beginner - You can play a few simple slack key tunes or play other finger-picked guitar styles. You play "pretty good" when no one is watching. Tuning is not a huge problem for you. It helps to know at least one slack key tuning. (Here's a hint: D-G-D-G-B-D low to high. That's "Taro Patch.") You are ready to move into playing more complicated slack key pieces.
* Intermediate - You can play in time and in tune, mostly. You know at least few tunes in slack key style, or you are reasonably adept at Travis-picking and/or other folk or classical finger-picked guitar styles. You can keep your thumb steady, mostly. You are not afraid to try new things. You may be a good TAB reader, or maybe you play by ear. You are looking to improve your playing, work on fingerings and better understand your instrument.
* Intermediate/Advanced - You can play a fair number of slack key pieces, you are familiar with several tunings and/or are reasonably adept in at least one tuning, can play chords, double stops and melody and don't freak out when someone says, "Take one!" You do not have trouble keeping a steady bass with your thumb. You want to improve tone, learn how to build an arrangement, and better understand improvisation.
* Advanced -You can play difficult slack key pieces by ear or from TAB, you have a good understanding of your instrument, you can improvise a little and you are looking for a challenge. You are what we call a Big Dog.
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