| Author |
 Topic  |
|
slackkeymike
Lokahi
440 Posts |
 Posted - 01/13/2005 : 6:08:45 PM
|
Aloha all.
I just "discovered" Cindy Combs...wow! That CD will be here soon.
I bought some slack key sheet music, one of the songs include was by Ray Kane, Nanea Kou Maka I Ka Le'ale'a. Beautiful song, I have heard 100's of times. So, I sat down with my guitar tuned to Taro Patch, IPod Mini & ear phones, and sheet music. But it did not match. Oh, it was a TP tuning, just about 1 to 1.5 steps below a standard referance (440 hz, hold the b or second string constant). Is this the result of post processing?
Mildly confused, but happy none the less,
Mike :)
|
Aloha, Mike |
Edited by - slackkeymike on 01/13/2005 7:57:44 PM |
|
|
RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 9:34:16 PM
|
Mike - don't know about that particular piece -- but in general ...
lots of times the tuning reported for a piece does not match what's actually played -- and there are lots and lots of reasons for that. For instance, one of the bits of advice I was given years and years ago was to tune up about a half step to add "brightness" to the recording. Another example -- George K and I recorded a song -- we did a bunch of takes and didn't tune in between, by the third take I checked against a tuner and we were already off - didn't sound bad, we had just drifted down a bit on 2 strings.
The Dancing Cat website has some info -- and there was a very useful posting by Bill Campbell some time ago with very good info that might be helpful in nailing down a tuning
What to do about it? One of the ways I learned to "get" a song off a recording was not to go for "perfect pitch" but for "accurate relative pitch." For example. Hum or sing happy birthday. You probably know what those intervals sound like, right? Now just play the melody starting on the 1st. string, 2nd fret. Now try it starting on the 5th fret, then the 10th fret. You ended up with an accurate sounding melody for Happy Birthday in 3 different keys. You can adapt most melodies to any tuning or key by playing around a bit with the starting note and then getting the relative pitches correctly placed. Adding the chords can be a bit more of a problem, but most traditional based Hawaiian music only uses a limited set of chords -- typically I, IV, V (V7). That and a little fudging can get you a pretty close version.
Overall, I think it's ok to play someone elses's arrangements if we like them, and it is certainly a great way to learn, but it seems to me its best to move towards your own arrangements anyway -- and you can start moving in that direction much earlier than most people think.
Hope this is helpful, and sorry to lecture if it isn't. |
 |
|
|
Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 07:28:39 AM
|
Uncle Ray and other players commonly tune to a Taropatch set of intervals but at a different absolute pitch, often lower than standard G. Try it, it's a wonderful sound. You have to adjust your touch to handle the loose strings, but I think the lower pitch and softer touch add to the nahenahe quality. Different absolute pitch is also handy for covering different vocal ranges or when playing with ukuleles (who love F).
Fran
|
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
|
|
|
Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 10:32:38 AM
|
Aloha Mike,
I agree with Fran. Try dropping your strings down to open Eb (3 half steps, 3 frets) then, if that is too low, capo up on first or second fret to see if indeed it is taropatch tuning. Perhaps an easier way to do this is simply use the standard pitch TP tuning, and bar the frets at 12, 11, 10, 9, etc. until you find the key he is playing in. Then tune down, or up, to that key. If you find the tune is more than 3 frets from 12th fret, it is more likely that it is not TP tuning at all, but some other tuning. Then you must rely on other sources or a really good ear and familiarity with other tunings to figure it out. Good luck. I don't kow if I have that particular song at home, but if I do i will let you know what I find out.
|
Karl
Frozen North |
|
|
|
Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 3:28:41 PM
|
Mike,
Had to go home early and switch out the danged water pump! Picked up the CD and am playing it now at work. Curiously it is right in tune and pitch with my 12 string I keep here. But then i checked with my tuner, and for some reason, I had it tuned down to F instead of open G. So, there is your answer; just tune down to open F and play along:)
Just another observation; the next song on his Punahele Cd is Morning Dew, and it, too, is in open F. The liner notes (thank you DANCING CAT!) indicate it is in TaroPatch (open G) as are most of the songs on the CD, but I would bet they, too, are dropped down to F.
Have fun figuring it all out. |
Karl
Frozen North |
|
|
|
Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 3:37:40 PM
|
Mike,
One more thing on this subject; your original questionn was it a post production thing or what. Well, I have found a number of artists doing the same thing on their CDs. Moses has one tune in open F, most others in G. Doug McMaster has several in F, G, and Ab. All taropatch, just tuned down or capoed up from G. Last week we saw Ken Emerson play two sets in Princeville. He plays an amazing array of styles in several tunings, including standard. He did them all with the capo on the second fret. And, played all the high stuff, even though he has a 14 fret guitar with no cutaway. Pretty impressive show. But, he had a reason; this guitar has such a high action, i suppose perhaps a product of the humidity in north Kauai, that playing from the nut the intonation was way off up past the 10th fret. But, capoed at the second it made the action low enough so it sounded good all the way up the the last fret.
Whatever works! |
Karl
Frozen North |
|
|
|
slackkeymike
Lokahi
440 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 5:15:06 PM
|
Thanks everybody...tuned down three frets is exactly what I noticed. It is mode definitely TP tuning, just keyed down. BTW, I love Princeville, then again, I love rain. I need to move there!
Mike |
Aloha, Mike |
|
|
|
Larry Miller
Akahai
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2005 : 05:00:08 AM
|
I just got 4 slack key and steel guitar cds from Dancing Cat, and I imediately noticed from the notes that the actual pitches are all over the place. So 'swhy hahd for playing along and learning. But it's still a valuable sources of ideas and info.
|
Whee ha!
Larry M |
|
|
|
Gary A
Lokahi
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2005 : 07:40:13 AM
|
The Dancing Cat website has an incredibly detailed information about the tunings used on popular slack key recordings (both Dancing Cat and non-Dancing Cat label). It even includes information about the absolute pitch. The original Dancing Cat liner notes usually did not bother to mention the absolute pitch.
For example if you go here and scroll down to the Ray Kane section you'll see that his guitar was tuned down a half or whole step for almost the entire "Punahele" album:
http://www.dancingcat.com/skbook5-hirecordingsg.shtml
The whole slack key book can be accessed from this page:
http://www.dancingcat.com/skbook-tableofcontents.shtml
|
Gary |
|
|
|
Bill Campbell
Akahai
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2005 : 4:57:35 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Karl Monetti
Aloha Mike,
Try dropping your strings down to open Eb (3 half steps, 3 frets)
Karl, wouldn't that be 4 half steps, 4 frets (from G to Eb)? G to Gb, Gb to F, F to E, E to Eb. I think 3 would drop you to E, as I have done on several of the tracks on my CD. Your advice, though, is very good.
Aloha,
Bill |
Edited by - Bill Campbell on 01/15/2005 4:58:24 PM |
|
|
|
slackkeymike
Lokahi
440 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2005 : 5:35:51 PM
|
Gary,
Mahelo for the links! Very useful.
Larry, Chances are very good you can play along with your CDs. I figured out the Ray Kane song by ear (Nanea Kou Maka). The link Gary provided would have helped...but now you have it. Have fun with it!
Mike |
Aloha, Mike |
|
|
|
sbar15
Lokahi
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 02:44:25 AM
|
| Ok so I do not understand this, if I am tuned to taropatch and want to tune down one half step what is the tuning. |
Steve |
|
|
|
Bill Campbell
Akahai
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 03:37:07 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by sbar15
Ok so I do not understand this, if I am tuned to taropatch and want to tune down one half step what is the tuning.
Even though Taropatch tuning is generally considered to be an Open G (D-G-D-G-B-D) tuning, the definition has apparently been expanded to include all open tunings that have the same intervals - i.e., 5th-Root-5th-Root-3rd-5th, (from s6 to s1) or, as you have seen it printed, V-I-V-I-III-V, the Roman numerals refering to the notes of the chromatic scale.
Thus, if you tune your guitar to 'Taropatch' D-G-D-G-B-D and then drop every string an additional fret, step, half-tone (all say the same thing), your guitar will be tuned to an Open F# or Open Gb. That is the direct answer to your question. However, in the same manner, if you lower or 'slack' (ah-hah!) all 6 'keys' down another fret, you will be tuned to Open F, etc.
You can continue to slack the keys until one (or more) of the strings just makes a thud or sounds too mushy. It depends on the guitar, its action, etc. I have found that the quality of the sound diminishes greatly below Open E.
When you listen to a recording that is purported to be in Taropatch tuning, do as Karl has advised in the above post and keep playing and moving the capo until your open chord is the same as the root chord for the song you are listening to.
The problem arises from the fact that, somehow, most of us began life with the notion that Taropatch meant simply Open G, only to find, later in life, that the term has been extended beyond that simple definition, especially with many of the Dancing Cat recordings.
Hope this helps.
Aloha,
Bill |
|
|
|
Larry Miller
Akahai
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 05:52:15 AM
|
I spent most of the day yesterday working on Moani Ke'ala. First I recorded part 1 in Taro patch, capoed up to the 5 th fret, putting it in the key of C. Then I overdubbed part two in Leonard's C.
Now to add the steel guitar... (Dell computer, Adobe Audition, Echo soundcard, etc.)
btw, how to you upload tracks to that website?
|
Whee ha!
Larry M |
|
|
|
Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 12:27:29 PM
|
Steve,
I think the point we all have missed in explaining this may be this; it is the relationship between the strings, not the actual pitch, that describes the tuning. Let's say all your strings just broke at the same time as your tuner died (and your dog got run over, wife left you, you wrecked your pickup while drunk on the way to jail,,,,,,,whoops, wrong genre). You put on a new set of strings and want to play in "taropatch "tuning. So, you tune up your base (6th) string to a pleasing pitch, whatever it might be, then tune 5th string to the 5th fret of 6th string, 4th string to the 7th fret of 5th string, 3rd string to the 5th fret of 4th stgring, 2nd string to 4th fret of 3rd string, 1st string to 3rd fret of 2nd string. NOw, your 1st, 4th and 6th strings should be at the same pitch, as are the 3rd and 5th. You are now in "taropatch" tuning. I have no idea what KEY you are in, but you can nnow play any taropatch tuning song you know, but maybe (probably) not along with the recording because they are likely at a different pitch. but you are in taropatch because the relationship of one string to another is the same as Open G, DGDGBD, which is the usual pitch or key that taropatch is supposed to be. So capoing up4 frets or tuning all strings down 3 frets puts you in different keys, but you are still in the same tuning.
Geez, now I'm confused |
Karl
Frozen North |
|
|
|
Bill Campbell
Akahai
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 12:50:43 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Karl Monetti
Steve,
Geez, now I'm confused
No, Karl, don't say that! That is a great way to explain it. We should archive your explanation for the future, because it is something that confronts every beginning slack key player, so it is going to come up again and again. Good job.
Aloha,
Bill |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
