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 Hawaiian Slack Key Guitar / Hawaiian Music
 Tone quality, color
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Stringbreaker
Akahai

USA
62 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2005 :  2:02:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stringbreaker's Homepage
Totally biased preference for the natural approach stated here. Bare fingers with natural nail, based on my being lucky enough to gave good fingernails, and being completely intolerant of acetone and other solvents. If I had no good nails AND the same inability to accept substitutes I might be making resort to a flatpick. My best source of good tone is flesh and very short nails (with a nice guitar supporting it). These stories of players having such drastic problems with artificial nails makes me double grateful to not have to resort to such things. Brrr!
Other than that, I think the idea of not even playing until the guitar is in tune has real merit to it.

Stringbreaker

Crazy Man Tuning
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slackkeymike
Lokahi

440 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2005 :  6:37:38 PM  Show Profile
NOw this has gotten WAY off topic...but, Hapakid, NO nails? Does it hurt?

Mike

Aloha, Mike
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu

USA
1533 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2005 :  8:01:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit hapakid's Homepage
quote:
Hapakid, NO nails? Does it hurt?


Hah!

Jesse Tinsley
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RJS
Ha`aha`a

1635 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2005 :  8:08:58 PM  Show Profile
Here are some ideas I use to make repetitions sound more interesting. They take experimenting with, some things work for some songs, others for others. (pls ignore spelling)
- Pretty simple, but effective: PLay the first time through in the sweet spot. The next time, strum close to the bridge, for a sharper tone, the next time move up over the frets for a really mellow tone. Or more interestingly, vary those positions during the repetitions. (I'm learning how you can change the color of each note by the angle of attack and the type of stroke - but I don't know if that applies to steel string guitars.)
- Change the dynamics more -- that is, adding accents, changing the patterns of loudness/softness. Emphasize some notes by rolling the chord or strumming. Alternate with single notes, maybe with some vibrato, especially if the note is hold for a while.
- A bit more complicated, but not too hard: change the strumming, arpegiatting, picking patterns -- vary them even within the chorus or verse. "Roll" the arpeggio at different rates, or strum on different places.
- Add a few hammer ons, pull offs, harmonics
- Change the tempo for one of the repetitions. For example, slow one repetition down, or double the note values, maybe adding a different arpeggio at the longer notes.
- Little more complicated, but very effective -- voice some of the melodies up near the 1-3 frets, voice the next repetition on higher frets. Or play the melody on the first string, and for the repetition, play it on the second string.
- Change some of the harmonies especially on prolonged notes-- instead of just parallel 6ths, flesh out a more interesting chord -- or do a resolution from a more dissonant chord to a more marmonic chord.
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Reid
Ha`aha`a

Andorra
1526 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2005 :  04:32:52 AM  Show Profile
Just after the first AMC, Sarah and I went to Healdsburg for the Guitar Festival. We were invited, and went, to a party in Sonoma where Buster B. Jones was one of the partiers. Buster, besides being one heckuva guitar player and nice guy, is a super teacher. We found ourselves on the patio alone with him and got to talking about tone production. So, he launches into a full scale demo and systematized the ideas so that even I could understand what the elements are.

Basically, you can think of the picking hand as an airplane, in that it has 4 degrees of freedom: roll, pitch, yaw and translation. Translation is what Raymond is talking about when he says he moves his hand up and down along the axis of the strings from bridge to fretboard. Roll is when you move your hand/finger complex around the axis of your wrist/forearm. Yaw is when you swivel your hand/fingers from side to side in a plane at the wrist. Pitch is when you bend your hand up and/or down at the wrist. Each one of these motions, separately, or bits of each at the same time, will change the way your fingers/nails/picks strike the strings, and change the sound produced.

Some of these sounds are ungood, experimentation is in order. One book I have, "The Guitarist's Guide to Composing and Improvising", by Jon Damian, based on a course at Berklee College of Music, shows some diagrams of nail positions, with comments on the sound produced, made by a student in the course who was experimenting. Interesting and helpful.

...Reid
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Larry Goldstein
Lokahi

267 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2005 :  06:38:49 AM  Show Profile
Regarding nails... If you don't mind your nails being a bit glossy, a standard nail harderner like Sally Hanson's "Hard As Nails" is very effective at preventing broken nails. Also, classical players tell me it's important to file every day to take care of micro cracks.

Larry
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RJS
Ha`aha`a

1635 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2005 :  07:40:36 AM  Show Profile
jwn: "visualization" practice is a time honored tradition -- often a good aide to memorization, too. As to fingering patterns -- for fast and intricate passages, the order of fingering is what makes or breaks it. I'm trying to work on Peter Moon type riffs, and the biggest part of getting them up to speed seems to be getting the right r hand order.

Reid: The "techniques" of tone production aren't all that complicated, no? Putting them into practice in a way that enhances the beauty of the piece. I guess one of the things that keeps guitar interesting is that there's always more to learn
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Reid
Ha`aha`a

Andorra
1526 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2005 :  08:10:17 AM  Show Profile
Raymond,

The concepts that Buster gave us sound simple; but he meant them to be a way of reminding us that we should try various "angles of attack" and understand how to *start* doing that (Sarah is way better than me at it: "why am I not surprised?"). It is in the actual execution that it gets lots harder, since there are literally thousands of combinations of those hand/finger positionings, as you vary them. (If there are 10 (actually, Damian's student had about 15) viable positions of each of the 4 variables, you end up with 10 thousand. That is *partly* where the complications lie - the others are due to artistic choices of the moment, and the speed at which you must make the choice. So, you are certainly right that "there's always more to learn" and, I don't think that there is any more important part than "tone production". Which is why it is so good that you brought the topic up. Now, for those who have the natural talent, which I assuredly do not, much of this might be easy, or "second nature" to them. It is for guys like me that knowing the basic concepts are important. If Buster hadn't said those things, I would have even less of a clue than I now do.

...Reid
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barry luttrell
Aloha

Canada
13 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2005 :  3:19:49 PM  Show Profile
Well, just to follow up on what Karl & others said about the grooves in the pads of the fretting fingers...I've got thick calluses[calli?], as well as permanent, very deep grooves in the callus. Have been playing for 11+ years & those grooves were there from the very beginning,the deepness is almost the size of a guitar string.

These grooves really affect my playing & many times have made me want to stop playing.

What happens is when changing chords if I hit each string of the new chord just so, where the strings fit right into those grooves then I get a nice clean sound, but plenty of times I miss that groove just by a bit, sometimes just on one string & then I get slippage & an unclear,fumbled note. And yes, pull-offs are tough because sometimes the string gets caught in the groove.

Hope that is clear, not easy to describe, but it drives me nuts I tell ya, because other than that my playing is not bad.

I don't know if there is a solution to this, I just wanted to complain a bit & also say I didn't realize other players might have a similar problem.

Barry



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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu

USA
756 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2005 :  4:27:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit Karl Monetti's Homepage
Thanks for sharing your nail/callus info with me. I will stay away from acrylics, may try the nail hardener, will take more time to sand them daily to prevent micro-cracks, will suffer along with the rest of you with my "railroad track" calluses (actually, the problem several of you mentioned about getting hung up on the callus when doing a pull-off, this is one slight benefit for me, as I often use the push-off instead, toward the 6th string, and those little grooves make it sound sharper for me).
And, yes, I will practice, practice, practice according to the Zen guitar 'way'.
Raymond, i like your ideas for sprucing up the variations or repetitions of verses. I added a couple variations to Johnny's Bounce that also add to the color. I thinnk we can all call upon the instincts we have gained by playing over the years to add a little twist or two to many of the songs we play. Some songs just seem to want to go somewhere else, other than the way you first hear them. That may be one of the reasons we hear versions of many slack key songs that sound so different. The first one to come to mind is My Yellow Ginger Lei that was discussed a few weeks back, with versions by Paul tagioka, John Keawe, and Keola Beamer all sounding like they came from different planets!
About the original thread, though, all three of those artists have achieved (although one has an awful lot more string squeak than the others)excellent tone, so we must work toward that goal. After reading your original post, I went upstairs with the guitar (6-string, Jesse; the twelve comes out after i figure things out) and did some of the things you mentioned, changing angles of attack of right hand, placement of left fingers within the fret, trying different forms of vibrato, positions on the neck, etc. Thta is one challenging group of exercises one could work up to practice on. you are right, there is a lot to this, and I would be willing to bet that each of us would find a different way to get that improved tone.

Karl
Frozen North
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu

USA
826 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2005 :  6:30:43 PM  Show Profile
Great comments.

One more I'd like to add to the creation of tone: Posture. Most of my life I've played standing up, with a strap. Throught years of rock and roll and jazz, I never noticed difficulty in playing. My arms and wrist and fingers were in the right position to play comfortably. I always noodled with the guitar resting on my right leg. The more I played slack, the more I noticed difficulties; not only correct fretting, but cramping of my left wrist and fingers. I talked to Keola about this and he recommended playing in a more classical position like he does. I tried that and my hand position was better, but holding my left arm in the air tired me out. Then I saw John Keawe and Ozzie Kotani with those nifty little straps the fit in between the lower bout. This put my hands and arms in great position, but it stressed out my lower back. Finally, I put a strap on the guitar as if I was going to stand. What a difference. Everything fell back into place and I was stress free.

This may not be the answer for you, but what I'm trying to say is that to milk that tone out of your guitar, you need to be comfortable for long periods. Of course, I get lazy and hold the darn thing in my lap on occasion. But before long I have the strap on it.

Mahalo,

Dave
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RJS
Ha`aha`a

1635 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2005 :  6:40:44 PM  Show Profile
I think positinging is very very important - and not just for tone. Playing the guitar is a very athletic enterprise. If we used large muscle groups like we do our small muscle groups when we play, we would be exhausted. And... sooner or later the body has to deal with all that stress. The "classical" position evolved over time partly because it is ergonomically sensible. (Though I don't think it developed in an ergonomic way consciously.) I want to be able to play for as long as I can with as little pain as possible.
I use one of those cushions to hold up me guitar -- keeps it just right. And I use the "Guitar Chair" - an ergonomically designed chair -- once I started using that, no back pain at all.
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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu

USA
756 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2005 :  7:59:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit Karl Monetti's Homepage
I met Dusty on Kauai a few months back, and he mentioned in passing that he had begun using the strap even when sitting. I was coincidently having some problems with keeping the guitar still; each time i would sit down to play, it wsould be on a different chair or couch or the bed, on the beach, whatever, and in some positions I coujld not play a lick becaue th guitar kept moving. After Dusty left, i bought a cheap strap and have used it often since. It really does help with tone in that it allows me to have a constant point on the guitar to aim at! There are some chairs that work well for me, others don't. I have tried numerous times to play in the classical position, and for certain prts of the neck it is great, but for some reason, down near the nut i have to go into contortions to play anything. I find now that the strap is an equilizer of sorts, making the guitar stable no matter where i sit or for how long. And, yes, whoever that wise guy was, 40 years is a bit long to play at one sitting. Dat would make one big bottom guy.

Karl
Frozen North
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu

USA
1533 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2005 :  8:15:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit hapakid's Homepage
I think about posture and guitar position, too, because I do get back/neck pain because I like to see the fretboard and strings, at least a little bit, which leads me to crane my neck at odd angles. I've been standing a lot and using a strap.
Going back to Raymond's original post about adding emotion through the use of different hand techniques, I started thinking about traditional slack key and where the emotion is. RJS mentioned listening to Spanish and Latin guitarists, but I think Hawaiian music serves a different purpose in the culture.
Traditional Hawaiian music has always been, with a few exceptions, about celebrating joy, often found in romantic love and it's comparisons to the natural world. And it's a kind of party music intended to help your relax and enjoy the moment. Even the saddest songs have a musical "joy" to them. There are no minor (sad) chords in traditional songs.
While learning "Shaka Slack Key" I noticed the striking resemblance of slack key to ragtime, which was also a form of party music that made you want to dance.
So I would postulate that the most important part of learning slack key is preserving the free-wheeling fun of the music, which originated around campfires and under trees on the beach.
I'm not talking about modern slack key. It has its own influences, not the least of which is all of us mainlanders playing pop tunes in taropatch, writing our own slack key songs and talking about it on computers.

Jesse Tinsley
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RJS
Ha`aha`a

1635 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2005 :  9:28:24 PM  Show Profile
Jesse,
As I understand it, most "traditional" slack key is accompaniment for singing, and you are correct that most players do not spend much time worrying about "tone color."
I have 3 comments. 1) I'm not telling anyone how to play. I am sharing what my concerns and growing edges are about my own playing. If it resonates with others, I'm interested in knowing how they go about it. If people want to talk with me about it, great fun. If no one else interested, won't change my interest.
2) Note that in my initial posting, I didn't say more emotion but rather more varied tonal coloration. Ok to keep to happy and relaxing. But even within that, the instrument we play is capable of lots of range of tonal coloration. That's what makes up the "poetry" of the guitar, and it sure can be a poetry of joy. It also makes for a more interesting sound.
3) I personally have never said that I play traditional slack key. I don't. And I am not embarrassed to play pop tunes, or Latin tunes, or create my own tunes - all in a style influenced by slack key. That's the kind of thing musicians have done, probably as long as there has been music. As far as talkig about it on the computer -- yeah I probably do spend much too much time typing away here. I was seriously thinking of pulling back, but I guess it is an addiction.
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