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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
 Posted - 03/16/2005 : 2:01:29 PM
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I've been learning resonator and lap steel in taropatch tuning, but I'm intrigued with Barney Isaacs' sound. I've been told he played in a C6 tuning. Unfortunately, I've found several C6 tunings, including C# E G A C E, A C E G C E, G C G A C E, and E C G A C E.
Does anyone know what tuning Isaacs played? Does anyone have a preference for a particular C6 tuning? Obvious, I'm looking to get away from the steep slants of taropatch tuning.
Mahalo!
Jesse Tinsley
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2005 : 3:17:37 PM
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Ummmm... I know what Ozzie calls C6 and it is a variant of Atta's C. This is also known as Gabby's C and C Maunaloa. It is CGEGAE. The C on the 2nd string in Atta's C goes to A (the 6th), and you get the 5th between the top 2 strings for the high parallel 6ths. Also, I did a mini-analysis of it a while back and you get *all* the open chords (as in TP) in a diagonal on the top 3 strings. All the triad shapes are the same diagonal. So, it would really work well for a slide (sorta like the 789 G in TP). Also, all the stuffs I wrote long time ago about Atta's C would apply. I don't have any historical foundation, of course, but since it is in the Isaac `ohana, I would bet on it.
Your technoid...
...Reid |
Edited by - Reid on 03/16/2005 4:05:34 PM |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2005 : 3:49:02 PM
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Oh yeah,
Dennis also uses C Maunaloa a lot - as on Wahine `Ilikea, etc. And Oz uses it on his first DC album, as on "My Old Kika" or whatevaz - it is late on the Right Coast and I am bleary.
...Reid |
Edited by - Reid on 03/16/2005 4:08:15 PM |
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Gary A
Lokahi
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2005 : 5:45:23 PM
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On the Hawaiian Touch CD Barney Issacs did with George Kuo, he used the C6 tuning: CEGACE from low to high. In the liner notes they call it an Am7 tuning. That's technically true (it is an Am7 chord), but everyone calls it C6. That's the common C6 tuning for lap steel. It's popular for Hawaiian music and Western Swing. There is also an 8 string version: ACEACEG.
It's a great tuning because you can all the inversions of the major and minor chords, plus major 6 chords and m7 chords without doing any slants. It's sounds a lot jazzier. That's why that Barney Issacs slack key/steel album has such a different sound than Bob Brozman's slack key/steel albums. Bob uses more traditional tunings such as Taropatch.
It can sound really hip on electric lap steel. Try playing In The Mood and use lots of m7 chords. You'll feel like you're playing a Hammond Organ.
I have some tabs by Jerry Byrd where he uses the variation with the C# on the bottom. Some people call that C6 but some people also call it the "C6 with A7".
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Gary |
Edited by - Gary A on 03/16/2005 6:02:46 PM |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2005 : 7:34:46 PM
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Mahalo, again, Gary. I loved the sound he had on Hawaiian Touchand I like that full sound he got from working two-string harmonies through a line which then resolved to three-string harmonies. Very Hawaiian, very laid back, but not schmaltzy.
Can standard dobro strings tune up/down to that or do you use a special set?
JT
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Gary A
Lokahi
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2005 : 8:20:38 PM
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| I'm pretty sure you'd need to put together a special set of strings to do it on a dobro. On a dobro some people retune the fourth string from a D to an E (GBEGBD low to high) to get a G6 tuning. It starts to get you into the same ballpark as the C6. Cindy Cashdollar teaches the G6 tuning on her Dobro Variations instructional video and does a hot version of the western swing tune Panhandle Rag. |
Gary |
Edited by - Gary A on 03/16/2005 8:26:08 PM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2005 : 3:46:38 PM
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Check out "The Hawaiian Steel Guitar & its great Hawaiian Musicians" compiled by Lorene Ruymar (Centerstream, dist by Hal Leonard.)
It's a great, quirky book with a huge amount of info, tons of pix, lessons, histroy, and first-hand stories.
There are two very handy tuning & string guage charts. Enough info to really keep your local music store in biz for a long time!
For C6th, try these: C .036, E .030, G .024, A .022, C .018, E .014
I've been sticking with G6 so far, which does still have some of those nasty slants on the top three strings. With practice, they are getting less painful to hear.
But Kona Bob somehow manages to play in TaroPatch without lot's of slants & it sounds great. He told me the trick is to find other places to play the double stops with a straight bar. He's teaching at George's camp this June - wish I didn't have to work!
cheers,
Mark
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2005 : 9:58:27 PM
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Mahalo, Mark!
I was wondering if the string guages would vary widely, as in a standard string set (approximately .60-.13) or if they'll all tend to be lighter guages. I'm going to see if I can get that set Monday for my lap steel. I can't wait.
Jesse Tinsley |
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Konabob
`Olu`olu
USA
928 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2005 : 07:19:25 AM
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Hi Jesse, Mark, Gary and Reid...
I used to get all twisted about "what is the best string set for....(fill in your favorite tuning here)." And I spent a lot of time using this nifty online calculator: http://www.pacificsites.net/~dog/StringTensionApplet.html
I was experimenting with all kinds of tunings at first. Ken Emerson kindly pulled me aside and said "I have been playing with Taropatch and G6th for 20 years now, and I am learning new things all the time. First get really good at one tuning, then you can start messing around with others". It turned out to be good advice in my case. Bob Brozman has convinced me that I need more slants in my music, so I am slowly working them in. I have to keep reminding myself that I don't have to be able to play like Bob or like Ken, (I don't have the nervous energy supply that they seem to have) so I enjoy playing more nahenahe styles.
I have finally landed on a string set that works really great for Taro Patch Steel, and will also let me tune to G6th. My nut to bridge length is 25.25" The top 3 strings are plain steel so it cuts down on the buzz you get from wound strings. John Pearse Hawaiian set #7300 (http://www.juststrings.com/jps-7300.html) costs about $5.37 per set and stays nice and bright for a few months of regular playing.
Guages: .016, .018, .022, .032w, .046w, .054w
I really enjoy the simplicity of Taro Patch Steel. To my ear, it seems to be somewhere between the high-lonesome Nashville E9th tuning and the warm and sometimes melodramatic Hawaiian C6th. No one tuning can sound best at every kind of music, but Taro Patch is very versatile and best of all it seems honest and straight forward. The peoples tuning!
...And Mark, you know that I will be gazing across the channel from Maui this summer, wishing I could be in 2 places at once. Shirley and I were able to attend the Beamer/Keawe/Yeaton concert in Felton. What aloha, what fine musicians!
Aloha,
-Konabob
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Konabob's Walkingbass - http://www.konawalkingbass.com
Taropatch Steel - http://www.konaweb.com/konabob/
YouTube - http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=Konabob2+Walkingbass |
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Gary A
Lokahi
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2005 : 07:47:20 AM
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I spent some time playing with C6 but went back to Taropatch for the reasons that Konabob mentions above.
One nice thing about the C6 tuning is the way the scales lay out in a simple "2-fret box". Here's a document on the Horseshoemagnets.com website describing it:
http://www.horseshoemagnets.com/userfiles/modes_in_c6.rtf
I don't know if you're the type of person who thinks about modes when playing. If you're not, then just think "C major scale" when he talks about "C ionian" and think "the scale used use over a G chord in the key of C" when he talks about "G mixolydian".
The site contains some other information about slants and string gauges in the C6 and C6/A7 tunings. To get there, go to the main page http://www.horseshoemagnets.com/ then use the menu to go to Steel Stuff->Services.
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Gary |
Edited by - Gary A on 03/20/2005 8:14:19 PM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2005 : 1:37:39 PM
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Glad to see this section is seeing some action again.
I agree with Bob, Gary, and others about sticking with one tuning till you master it.
That being said -- I'm still looking for the one I want to live with. G6 is 'way cool, if only for the the fact that it translates so well from Taro Patch guitar.
But I cranked up into both A6 & C6 on the El Cheap-o last night to see what they might offer.
C6 certainly has "the sound" - but it is very much terra incognita right now. So mahalo for the links, Gary.
quote:
I don't know if you're the type of person who thinks about modes when playing.
I live in mode land - 30+ years of dulcimer playing, and even longer listing to Miles. 
For the benefit of anyone who doesn't know what a mode is, here's a quick & dirty definition:
A mode is a seven note scale based on the intervals found in the major scale.
Which is simply a scale with the following intervals: whole step-whole step-half step--whole step-whole step-whole step-half step.
(Wot's a whole step? 2 half steps, or 2 frets on yr guitar. Whole step = W; Half step = H in the desciptions to follow.)
(Wot's an interval? The musical "distance" between two notes. So B to C is a 1/2 step; B to C# is a whole step. B to D is three hald steps, also known as a minor third...)
The modes have Greek names, for reasons I won't bore you with. (Practical use of the modes is pretty different than the stuff you study in school, by the way, so let's not go there, OK?)
Modes are used extensively in British Isles & European folk music -- and are pretty dang useful in jazz.
The major scale is called the Ionian mode -- think C to C on a keyboard.
The Mixolydian mode is almost like a major, but the jump from the 6th to the 7th is a half step, and from the 7th to the octave is a whole step. So it sounds like a dominant seventh chord. (W-W-H-W-W-H-W). It's G to G on the keyboard; or C to C if you play the Bb instead of the B key. (Modes are scales, not keys -- you can play any mode in any key.)
The Aolian mode is a minor scale (called the "natural minor" in yr school books). (W-H-W-W-H-W-W).
The Dorian mode is another minor scale (W-H-W-W-W-H-W). If you play the Dorian and then the Aolian starting from the same note, you see that the Dorian has a "major" sounding 6th compared to the Aolian.
When you play it against a major chord, the Dorian scale is very close to a blues scale: root-flat third-fouth-fifth-sixth-flat seventh. In fact, the common "Blue Box" scale pattern in most guitar books is actually a Dorian mode.
There's three more, like the weirdly useful Lydian mode. Which is a "major" scale with a sharp 4th: W-W-W-H-W-W-H. Also the Phrygian, which everyone who's faked "Malaguena" has played (H-W-W-W-H-W-W aka "the Flamenco scale") & the downright strange Locrian, which exists solely because it can.
Knowing your modes lets you quickly match up inside and outside scale tones against chords with a minimum of fuss.
Anywho, this is kinda getting out in left field, sorry.
Just trying to avoid actually doing any work today...
cheers,
The Musty Ol' Perfesser
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2005 : 04:15:57 AM
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Just an addition to what Mark wrote about modes and scales from a guy who likes numbers better than letters :-). This also might make some sense to other computer geeks like me.
Major scales have an interval pattern of 2212221 - as Mark said, intervals are distances between frets or "tones" and the Music World calls the basic interval (the musical "quantum") a "half" or "semi" tone. So, look above, in Mark's listings of W (2 half tones/frets) and H (1 half/fret) tone patterns, that each sequence is a Circular Shift (or rotation) of 2212221. This is related to the fact that a scale is a repeated sequence (C goes to C, etc.). The Music World starts out with C as the base major scale (I don't know why they didn't name it A :-)
So, note that Mixolydian mode is, in Mark's post, W-W-H-W-W-H-W, or 2212212, which is just the original 2212221 circularly shifted so that the first pair of 2s are now the 4th and 5th intervals. The same is true for the other "modes" - 2212221 rotated by diferent amounts.
Just remember that Half(Semi) tones are just a fret on a guitar.
Am I confusing you more? If so, Sorry...
...But, do this trick when in Taro Patch:
Play the G scale on the 3rd G string. The frets are: 0 (open), 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12. You know that by heart (because they are the low notes of parallel 6ths in Taro Patch), right, and it sounds good. You can see that the intervals are: 221221. Rotate the pattern so that you get what Mark wrote and see how they sound.
...Reid |
Edited by - Reid on 03/21/2005 05:39:07 AM |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2005 : 07:59:16 AM
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Last night I put a C6 tuning on my lap steel. Wow! Like others have said, "everything sounds Hawaiian" when you put the bar down in C6 tuning. You get 3rd and 6th grace notes almost everywhere. The downside is it's hard to find 1st/5th major chord combinations when you need them, so you still have to slant occasionally. Because the tuning has two root notes (C), two thirds (E) and one fifth and one sixth (G & A), the thirds and the sixth chord sound jumps out. In about ten seconds you're playing "How d'ya Do".
I would say that if you're playing behind a slack key guitar-based band, a la Sons of Hawai'i, the C6 would blend well with a strong Hawaiian sound. If you're occasionally playing lead and playing non-Hawaiian stuff, it's probably best to stick with a tuning that is more major chord oriented. I notice a lot of guys on this boards say "I like steel guitar okay, but I don't like..." something about traditional steel, either Sol Ho'opi'i's jumpy 1920s sound (emulated by Bob Brozman) or the Jerry Byrd/Bud Tutmarc style of three- and four-note long-sustained chords on lap/pedal steel. The C6 tuning sounds like Jerry Byrd, but to avoid that kitschy luau sound the player needs to know when to play less, go to a single string melody or find simple fifth harmonies.
Maybe none of my descriptions make sense to the musically inclined...
Jesse Tinsley
P.S. To get the strings suggested by others, I had to buy an E9 Nashville 10-string set and pull the ones I needed. I used an SIT set and they sound great. The light guage (.014-.036) sounds good all they way up, and the relatively light bass strings don't have that "tubby" and dull sound that some large guage strings have. The voicing of the strings are relatively uniform from treble to bass. |
Edited by - hapakid on 03/23/2005 4:02:40 PM |
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Gary A
Lokahi
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 08:02:39 AM
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This is too late to help Jesse since he already went out and got a new set of strings for C6, but I was looking at Stacy Phillip's "Hawaiian Steel Guitar" book and he had a good suggestion.
If your lap steel is tuned to High-G tuning (GBDGBD, low to high) and you want to try C6 tuning, you can loosen the first three strings to get a G6 tuning GBDEGB, low to high. This is different from the G6 tuning I mentioned earlier. The notes have the same relative relationship as the C6 tuning. I tried it and it works. The strings are a little floppy, but at least you don't have to change strings. Just strum it and slide around you get that "Hawaiian steel guitar" sound.
Stacy's book only touches lightly on the G6 tuning. There are only four tunes tabbed out, but they do give you a feel for some of the things you might do in the tuning.
He spends some time relating the G6 tuning to the standard High or Low G tuning which is useful since many people start with open G. I found it's a good way to think about the tuning since I can apply what know about the open G tuning to G6 (or C6). For example the pattern of straight and reverse slants that you use on the 1st and 2nd string when playing a scale of harmonized thirds in the open G tuning is the same pattern you use on the 2nd and 3rd strings of a G6 tuning. Also, the pattern of one and two fret forward slants you use to play a scale of harmonized sixths on the 1st and 3rd strings of a open G tuning are the same in G6 tuning. If you start looking for similar intervals between string pairs in the two tuning you'll find more relationships.
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Gary |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2005 : 06:17:27 AM
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| I play with a friend that uses a 13th tuning, with a 6th and a minor7th. He has an 8 string Dobro and a double 8 Fender ( one neck is a straight G ). Very cool stuff. Kory |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2005 : 11:43:17 PM
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Thanks, Gary.
I did put on my C6 set and found, as Mark put it, "plenty of terra incognita" there, but I like some of the sounds I'm getting. I have Stacy Phillips book, and I'll check out G6. I assume you could reconfigure the string guages on the highest three strings and get respectable tension for steel playing.
Jesse Tinsley |
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