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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 03/29/2005 : 5:19:27 PM
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OK, this is an extension of my sound and buzz problems, previously discussed on the Southwest Wing!
I'm convinced that a GREAT deal of the REAL action is in the perfection of right hand technique.
Notes and fingerings I can mostly get.
Today, I was watching Keola's video, and he has the right arm come over the top and around the guitar...and then the hand drops about 45 degrees (more or less). His Hawaiian superman nails come in at interesting angle.
When I try to reproduce this on my guitar, I can't seem to achieve this exact or close enought to exact playing position.
I'm getting really into to this because, for me, the crux of a lot of my clean playing concerns (buzzing when the thumbnail glances an active string), like dude, I start into a 5-2-4-1 roll, and as I prep to strike the 4th string, I trigger a buzz on 5.
My Goodall concert is a bit smaller than some of the "Gene Autry" guitars. And I'm 6'5" and about 205 (picking weight).
I've tried my friends Goodall Jumbo...man what a BIG GUITAR!
Do I need to graduate to the more expensive accordian?
While I've discussed and am investigating other guitar widths and size...I like my Koa concert cutaway...
It seems like I should be able to get a pretty darn good sound with it!
I need to find a GREAT one on one teaching pro, so that I can learn correctly.
I'm spending quite a bit of time for a grown man on this, so it'd be nice if I could get a higher return on my investment.
Sleepless in Denver.
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Auntie Nancy
`Olu`olu
USA
593 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 5:49:54 PM
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Hey Sleepless....
Keali'i Reichel offers one on one lessons $100. Maybe he'd drop by and help you out?
I think I don't hold the guitar right and everyone say "whatever's comfortable" but I don't think that's all there is to it. When you find out, let me know
thanks!
n |
nancy cook |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 8:11:08 PM
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Hi,
While I may not take any one opinion as "gospel", there are a few that I would listen to--and watch closely.
Who has the best hand positions in Slack key today?
Every person has different hands, and body characteristics...still, I have to figure a tendency towards good, basic classical position is advisable.
Adapted to the free stroke style of course.
Of course, there will always be adaptations, allowances, and creativity....and sometimes just pure determination.
I just know that in a studio, any slight imperfections will create errant sounds they will be right there EVERYTIME!
And I don't want to be a complete Sound Tools co-dependent!
For now, I will consult with the best I can find...but I'm not even sure who that is in Denver!
There are some good--even great classical and folk pickers...but are they my ultimate guru?...probably not.
The seeker.
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 03:04:52 AM
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Gordon,
I have been struggling with this right hand issue for years and observed a *lot* of players (including many pros in many musical genres) and read a lot.
First, to address your Keola observations. Keola does what is best for Keola. His hand and thumb are actually distorted: I have pictures to prove it. His thumb is permanently bent/curved, and his wrist break constricts the tendons that move the thumb and forefinger.
The wrist really should be *straight* - think all the ergonomic info about keyboarding,piano playing, mousing, etc. Since I *didn't* do that in the beginning, I have permanent tendonitis. Now I use an orthotic to keep my wrist straight and the tendon channels open.
One thing Keola's advice can help you with: the "classical" position, that he uses (foot rest, guitar waist on left leg, neck up at an angle *and* your nose right over the neck/body join) has been developed over the decades for a reason. It puts the guitar parts in the proper place for your body. Then you can get your fingers perpendicular to the strings for a proper stroke, while your arms and wrists are comfy.
It is true that young strong people can be in most any position that they like, and that they develop strange muscles that carry them through the years, hunching over the guitar and twisting their arms and hands and backs and necks. If it works for them: great. But, it sure doesn't for *lots* of others.
Try some position variations.
...Reid
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Edited by - Reid on 03/30/2005 05:37:46 AM |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 05:17:02 AM
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Hi Gordon,
If I remember correctly, Scott Tennant's (of the Los Angeles Guitar Quartet) book "Pumping Nylon" has an excellent chapter on proper position, left and right hand technique. It's a pretty standard book among classical players, so you should be able to find it all over the place.
Here's the Amazon link:
Image added by Admin |
Darin
http://www.hawaiiguitar.com/ |
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sandman
Lokahi
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 07:06:40 AM
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Hi Darin:
You're right, Scott tenant's Pumping Nylon is filled with ideas and drawings of various hand and body positions. He talks about both right and left hand positons separately and illustrates the various strokes. It's a great book but for one thing, and that is specific to me. I bought a first edition and it is in regular notation. I don't read music well and it is a struggle to follow his examples. However, later editions can be obtained in tab and, I think, one includes a cd. His text reinforces Reid's ideas about wrist position, etc.
Sandy |
Leap into the boundless and make it your home.
Zhuang-zi |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 10:26:40 AM
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quote:
Who has the best hand positions in Slack key today?
Gordon, you knew the answer before you asked: there is no "best" position save the one that works for your physiology and your guitar.
Any competent classical guitar teacher can give you the basics. You can really work on rest strokes, free strokes, and all the rest and it will greatly improve your tone & projection.
But, if you are really serious about ergonomics and avoiding future problems, schedule some time with a sports medicine specialist or physical therapist. Bring your guitar & chair if need be, and get an evaluation of what's going on when you play. It will change your life.
I thought I was holding the guitar in proper "classical" style for years. Then suddenly one day I couldn't move my left arm. A year later I learned that I'd been shifting my left should back out of alignment.
So now I'm playing some weird *ss hybrid folky right hand style. Tho' my lute playing buddies say it's really good 16th century guitar technique....
And yes, playing any musical instrument for years and years and years will deform your body. You should see my left hand!
That is not always a bad thing.
Unless you think Dizzy's cheeks are scary.
cheers,
M |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 12:06:43 PM
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I want to support both of Mark's suggestions.
Find a good classical guitar teacher and take a lesson or two. He or she should help you with the basics. Made a huge difference for me.
Finding a therapist who works with musicians is also useful. If you're near a major city, contact a local music conservatory or university music dept and ask to whom they refer for PT/OT.
Another alternative is someone trained as a teacher in the Alexander Technique.
Bookwise, I got some good pointers from "Playing Less Hurt" -- but I really benefited from the PT who specialized in postures, positions and musicians. |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 1:23:05 PM
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Hey Gordon,
If your looking for a classical/slack player and you're on Oahu, go see Jeff Peterson play at Michelle's at the end of Waikiki. He's there several times a week and he's a good guy. Oh, and the sunsets there are beautiful too. |
Darin
http://www.hawaiiguitar.com/ |
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Pops
Lokahi
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 2:36:58 PM
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Gordon,
Here's what works for me - whatever's comfortable on the instrument I'm playing seems to be OK. I've played for 40 years and I think it's safe to say that I probably position myself differenly on each instrument. For example, if you're playing a dreadnaught you hold your hand one way versus playing a jumbo body or parlor size. I don't think the problem is with your guitar, I'll beat you haven't tried positioning your guitar in enough ways to find out what works for you. By watching Keola's video you're bound to get many wonderful ideas, but remember, it's what works for him. Rev. Gary Davis was able to play many unusual chords because he broke his wrist and it wasn't set right. Django also suffered muscle damage which forced him to play in an unorthodox manner. Do what's comfortable and if it hurts listen to your body and try something else. Best of luck. |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 2:53:36 PM
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I hesitate to reply to my topic...sometimes it makes it seem "cooked".
I thought Keola's hand position looked a litte "bent".
There is a super classical player here, and will see if he's got a slot for once or twice consultation.
And one of our best friends is a good physical therapist AND guitar player, and yet have not utilized her knowledge fully.
My hand lays straighter than Keola's...just need to control the roll better, and do some of the carpel preventative stretches...
muscles just below the right elbow get a little overstimulated. But I will check out "Pumping Nylon", and a few other stretches and warmups...and try to achieve better technique than I have on violin...I'm a bit of a jungle violinist...but at least I don't puff my cheeks, and I play mostly in tune, for a fiddler!
g |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 08:44:58 AM
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Rolls take practice.
Try different profiles of your nails until you get what is best for you.
(I have to shape me middle finger nail differently than others because, for some reason, is gets concave while the others end up convex.)
My PT also pointed out how important the muscles just below elbow are. Also, the muscles that come in under the pecs can cause stress near wrist.
Good luck |
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Kiwini
Lokahi
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2005 : 08:57:21 AM
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Hi Gordon, I don't consider myself an expert in any stretch of the imagination but I will often use my imagination to often solve my own challenges. So take what you want and machs nix the rest.
Since I started experimenting with an amp two months ago, I didn't realize how prevalent the thumb nail buzz was. My solution although short term was to dampen the effect with a piece of band-aid tape conveniently cut to fit the curvature of my thumb nail. I realize that it is a short term fix to a long term problem but it works at home when I am playing for my own pleasure and until I find the cure it'll be a minor sacrifice to having one string not sustain its note every once in a while. (I know. Booooo!) But I get easily frustrated with these types of nusiances so I usually reach for the baid-aid fix before the surgery so that I avoid the lobotomy. That being said however, I wouldn't ask anyone to substitute a quick fix over developing correct technique. I have found the previous posts very intriguing.
Anyhooo, Just an idea,
Kiwini
Do you know how I can better my barring technique? I can't seem to get a clean sound from strings 3 to 5 when I have to reach three frets? Unfortunately I ran out of band-aids.
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Me Ke Aloha,
Steve |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2005 : 12:41:37 AM
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The barr stuff...
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one in cyberspace.
Sometimes I make up silly drills...
barr with first, then 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fingers...
also, while I barr with first finger, then do so some fingering "runs" of 2,3,4 on each string while holding the barr.
Also, start further up the neck to drill, the stretches and tension are less in the middle of the neck (I reckon)... and move back down to make it more challenging.
But don't do too much at once...weight lifters only do sets of say 3 and cool off. And they use steroids.
I use wheatgrass and flax seed oil.
But I'd rather hear from a real guitarist...just thought I'd jump on this, because obviously I like the sound of my own typing.
Even Mongo sometimes has some leakage with barr notes in the middle stings, especially when there's some 3rd and 4th finger activity.
Also, how about slacking to like, "F taropatch" for some barring drills.
One last one on closing the barr...
While my guitar is pretty friendly, I've sometimes picked up some of my friends and stated, "wow, this is really nice action".
Some were very high end, but some were not--just nicely set up (Taylors, Tacamine etc.) -- not what we might call, "the snooty guitars".
While we can all use a little help... and a one-on-one lesson with a coach is great...
I wonder if a specific workshop could happen somewhere down the road. Where we could break into small groups with a hour with the clinician for a portion or the time...to analyze (shoots, I've forgotten how to spell dat word) some player specifics would be effective in addressing some specific and yet common problems.
Instead of working on tabs, hot licks, and varied and sometimes slightly over-our-heads stuff...it could focus on basic, essentials--and in this case perhaps mostly right hand technique and position...
Which of course will lead to the left hand since our sitting and holding of the instrument can't be entirely isolated into a left hand and right hand, unrelated myopia.
Perhaps somewhere out on the west coast, since there is such an abundance of taropatchers and pickers...I might even grab an e-fare and learn someting. Especially if it was near a redwood or beach!
And finally, a week to address the
run-on sentences and paragraphs.
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Kiwini
Lokahi
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2005 : 08:41:34 AM
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Gordon, those are some really good ideas!
Mahalo Nui,
Steve |
Me Ke Aloha,
Steve |
Edited by - Kiwini on 04/04/2005 09:56:55 AM |
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Bing
Lokahi
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2005 : 09:10:56 AM
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Speaking of left and right hands.
The other day I was playing through my tunes and I accidentally looked down at my right hand. I was totally mesmerized by my fingers with the long nails dancing on the strings. They looked so smooth and sure of themselves unlike my old left hand fingers with their stubby nails and callused tips. I was so caught up watching my beautiful right hand fingers that I almost didn’t hear “Yo, Bing, It’s your left hand here and I don’t know where to go next”. So I just stopped and held up both my hands, looked at them, then said, OK you guys, Why don’t we just start over and this time I’ll pay attention.
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Bing |
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