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Keone
Akahai
50 Posts |
 Posted - 05/24/2005 : 07:52:19 AM
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Hello all,
This is a little like crystalization process part II, but my question is how to 'patchers go from playing a song off tab to just playing it. Also what's their process of learning a song. Hopefully someone has a process that is not as arduous as mine.
For example, I read over the tab before tackling it and try to pick up how many measures before it repeats? What's the base line doing? What chords are being used? I often read the tab over in bed like a book, and my wife looks at the notation that I read intently and thinks I'm crazy. When I actually have my trusty guitar in hand, I try to handle sections at a time and find the pecularities of each section. I try to learn songs that I just know inside and out when I listen to my CD's so I know melody and timing...and I play the CD while I'm studying the tab to help with the process. Of course, I play the same song off the CD over and over, til everyone around me is sick of them. And then I try to play the tab, sections at a time, over and over until everyone is sick of me playing the song (I don't think of it as practice because I'm having a blast, but in reality it is practice). I try to play the song, forcing myself to not look at the tab, but struggle because I try to picture them in my head as I'm playing. Although hard, I try to "wean" myself from the tab (sometimes its hard to sneak a peak).
For me, It has always then come down to repitition, trial and error, eventually weaning from the tab (and sometimes just learning sections wrong...or adding my personality to the song as I like to say.) It is the arduous process, still hella fun...(this is not complaining)..but...difficult and long. Especially when compared to rock songs when a quick look at the chords and the the rhythm and you got it in about 5 minutes.
Anyways, I was just wondering if others had a better trick, a shortcut, or holy grail to getting the songs into the golden part of the cortex that allows one to just sit in the grass on a sunny day, with a gentle breeze blowing through the hair, and just play a song, back and forth effortlessly.
Thanks.
Keone
P.S. In some older posting, I read others talk about color coding part of the tab, cutting and pasting things, etc. perhaps they could clarify it. It seemed this was more getting the whole tab laid out so you didn't have to flip pages, but it seemed like a good hint.
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Keone |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2005 : 08:56:43 AM
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Keone,
It sounds as if you are doing about as well as any of us. The big deal is knowing the melody and the fretboard. Secondary big deal is knowing the slack key vocabulary and structure.
As for cutting, pasting and color coding, that is for: 1. putting the whole thing in front of you at once so that you get a "gestalt" a feel for the whole piece, and 2., making sure you understand which sections are variations of a prior section(s) so that, if you know the primary, you can easily grok the modifications and do the variations.
...Reid
...Reid |
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Keone
Akahai
50 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2005 : 09:03:30 AM
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| Thank you Reid for the clarification. I did go back and read the post. The color coding, cutting, and pasting sounds like a great way to get everything up in front of you all at once. That certainly would make comparison of different section easier and thereby assimilation into the "memory bank" easier as well. Thanks. |
Keone |
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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2005 : 10:47:47 AM
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Keone
sonds like you are in the same boat as the rest of us. we all have different ways of internalizing the music, and what works for one of us may not work as well for another.
Certainly listening to the song so you know how it goes...that is an absolute essential for me. Then understanding how to read tab, of course. I do not preview the tab or make notes on it, just go along and my mind tells me if it sounds like the song i a used to hearing. Besides, i cannot "hear" the song on the paper, only when i play it does it make any sense to me.
Putting you own personality into it is important, even if it may stray fro the "original", which may , in fact, be the artists 15th perutation of that song, just so happens to be the one he tabbed. You ay find if you heard the same artist play that song again, say in concert, that his personality would have changed what you are used to hearing. I do not think absolute strict adherance to the individual notes has that much relevance. The song must be recognizable, after that, it just becoes more interesting.
AS=s far as your "proble " goes, what kind of time frae are you talking about? How long do you work on one song? Are we talking days, weeks, months or years?
If it's dyas, yo ae way ahead of most of us, if it's years, hmmmmmmmmm.
Most of us probably take weeks to "master" the basic song, many more time units to perfect it to any kind of performance level, and, i don't think you ever complete the learning of any song, unless you play like the classical musicians, with slavish replication of notes as written. All yuu have left there is the WAY you play the song, with little or no latitude for your own notes, variations, etc.. Slack key, and most other forms of music we like, leaves lots of room for personal interpretation (call 'em mistakes if you want).
Anyway, what i just said is yo are doing all the right things, anyway, and we all learn at different paces. One thing that seems to help me learn is repetition with tab only until i can play it thru on my own; usually 2-3 times. From there on out i try to divorce myself from looking at the tab at all. OK, so i end up with more mistakes (variations) than some other folks do, but, hey, it sounds OK to me. If you have to wean yourself a few measures at a time, do that, but get away from the printed page as soon as you can. that makes it easier for me, at least, to "own" the song. |
Karl
Frozen North |
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Auntie Nancy
`Olu`olu
USA
593 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2005 : 12:21:14 PM
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Aloha Keone,
Thanks for posting this thread. I hadn't thought about taking the tab to bed, or even reading it in that much detail. It should put me to sleep pretty fast... You are clearly doing better than some, and probably not as well as others.
There's just no way I can listen to a song I like and play it at all, at least not in slack. I haven't reached my first plateau yet, but I have hope.
By the way John, I think Deming was a surfer - maybe Bing will know.
n |
nancy cook |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2005 : 12:52:30 PM
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John,
That epitaph has been the guiding light of the last half of my life. Thanks for reminding me of it.
...Reid
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Keone
Akahai
50 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2005 : 1:54:50 PM
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Thanks everyone for the input,
Reading tab in bed is kind of crazy but hey it's all part of the visualization (what I see or hear with my eyes closed) that help me learn a song. Auntie Nancy you are right though...geez...I fall asleep faster than anything sometimes!
Karl, to answer your question..it usually takes on on the order of weeks for me to nail a song. Of course, I try to learn it as accurate as much as possible to start with (listening to the song on cd and using the tab as structure...I often find mistakes in the tab...well I guess not really mistakes ..as much as different version of the song on cd or when they sat down and tabbed it out! ) My thinking is if I can learn it as "accurate" as possible, then when I actually play it and add my mistakes....I mean personality  ...to the song then no sweat...the song is at least recognizable in melody, rhthym, structure, etc.
Also, I agree with Ben Sweetland (a 1960's self-development writer) that wrote "Success is the journey, not the destination." This is one of my favorite saying on the posters that are for sale in the "in flight catalogs on commercial airlines." It is a great guiding principle in life, to all things, including learning slack. BTW, I don't know who Robert Deming was, but he knew a good statement when he heard one. I don't think he was a surfer...but I could be very wrong about that.
Anyways, I love playing my guitar, especially ki ho'alu ... period. Whether I'm looking at tab or not. It does seem satisfying though when you can do it as I said, out in the sun, with a gentle breeze blowing, effortlessly in a manner that makes the tune recognizable to someone else other than me!
Keone |
Keone |
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2005 : 1:25:13 PM
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E Keone,
It takes me weeks, too. It just does, and for lots of songs. It takes longer for the longer, more complicated ones, like Punahele and 'Opihi Moemoe. I've been working on Ke'ala's Mele for a month now, not slavishly, but with enjoyment, and I am only now "crystallizing" the first two variations; I'm still on Tab for the second two variations; and I haven't even approached the fourth/fifth variations. Part of the expenditure of time, for me, is on the physical challenge of getting strength and flexibilty in my fingers to do some of the fingering and barres required. That kind of issue can slow a person down, too.
I do the cut and paste; this allows me to line up the variations (in their individual entirety) below one another: this helps my visual memory, and might help yours, too. It helps me see the overall pattern of the mele, and see similar structures, which again helps my memory.
I also try to get off the tab, wean myself, pretty soon -- but in sensible chunks. In this instance, I decided two variations was a good chunk to concentrate on first, and while that was processing, test the waters of the second two variations. And so on. If I spread myself too thin, i.e. try to cover the whole piece beginning to end all the time, I never remember anything!
Getting off the tab is when you can start to internalize and feel the music. That is why, to me, it is important to do and feels good.
Anyway, depending on the piece, it then can take me a year or more to really "smooth" out the piece so I can play it with abandon.
None of this 5-minute rock song stuff for me.
me ke aloha,
Sarah |
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Auntie Nancy
`Olu`olu
USA
593 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2005 : 3:31:26 PM
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Mahalo Sarah,
When you say variations, do you mean between different stanzas within the tab for one whole mele? I was so excited when I found some of the same progressions in different songs. I guess lots of us aren't youngsters so this memorizing thing takes quite a bit longer than it might have when we were young.
Are you two going to George's Camp next month? I know you're going to Keola's in Feb -
Aloha!
n |
nancy cook |
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2005 : 11:14:47 AM
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Aloha e Auntie Nancy,
quote:
When you say variations, do you mean between different stanzas within the tab for one whole mele? I was so excited when I found some of the same progressions in different songs.
In many songs, there will be an intro, and then a "theme" of usually 8 or 10 measures. This theme is then repeated, a variation, in the next 8 (or 10) measures. And so on, depending on how many "variations" a piece has.
So I cut up the tab and paste together the 8 (or 10) measure strips, one below the next on a big piece of cardboard, representing the "variations" in the piece.
This way, I can see that in each variation the measures always are in the same chord order, say, for example, G-G-D7-D7-D7-G-D7-G. Each variation will stick to the pattern.
I also can compare the variations visually with ease. I can see how each measure, while retaining its feeling of a G or D7, is played perhaps a tad (or a lot) differently than it was in the previous variation (series of 8-10 measures). And, conversely, I can see in which measures the variations are identical (less to learn!).
Breaking down the structure of the piece this way helps me see its logic and remember it.
As you suggest, comparing measures between songs is another thing one can do, and it is educational, too. When you clue into these, I call it learning a "vocabulary," or "building blocks" used in slack key, and yeah, that is fun!
Hope that helps!
Aloha,
Sarah
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2005 : 12:03:50 PM
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Just to add a bit on mechanics to what Sarah said:
"Traditional" slack key structure is 10 (can be more, but always a multiple of 2) measures ended by 2 sets of V, or V7, to I chord turnarounds. So when you encounter that, you know you have a 'section', either the theme or a variation.
Most tab authors conveniently tell you what a "section" is by ending it with 2 close vertical lines. So, that is either an intro, a theme, a variation, or an ending. You will easily know which is which.
A very good example of an easy to determine theme and variation series is Ho'amalu Slack key in Mark Hanson's book. A hard example, in the same book is Punahele. Take a look.
Once you know what the sections are, you xerox the pages, slice up the variations, tape them up - one over the other - on a piece of cardboard, and if you need to, as in Punahele, color code the (complicated) variations with colored pencils.
Some times they don't match up, but then you know that and can understand where the artist got "creative" and deal with it.
...Reid
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Keone
Akahai
50 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2005 : 07:04:15 AM
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Mahalo Sarah and Reid.
Thanks for the all the information. I think I'm going to give your cut and paste a try. The only thing I'm afraid of is that it's going to work so well that I'll have to read tab on big pieces of cardboard in bed now! (My wife will really think I've gone crazy. I better find nice cardboard.) The other thing is that I'll have to find a good place to store the cardboard for later reference...once I've weaned myself from tab.
Aloha
Keone |
Keone |
Edited by - Keone on 05/30/2005 07:07:16 AM |
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rhnelson
Aloha
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2005 : 5:08:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarah
In many songs, there will be an intro, and then a "theme" of usually 8 or 10 measures. This theme is then repeated, a variation, in the next 8 (or 10) measures. And so on, depending on how many "variations" a piece has.
So I cut up the tab and paste together the 8 (or 10) measure strips, one below the next on a big piece of cardboard, representing the "variations" in the piece.
Thanks to you all for the ideas. I've just been playing a song over and over until my fingers remember. Takes a long time.
I cut up the tab to "Mauna Loa" in Ozzie's book and came up with:
Intro 4 measures
1st 16 measures
2nd 14 measures
3rd 8 measures
Ending 6 measures
The variations seem long, am I missing something?
Thanks,
Rick |
Edited by - rhnelson on 05/30/2005 6:18:48 PM |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2005 : 6:11:25 PM
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For me, learning a song still is hard work, memorizing it is stil also hard work.
The more songs I learned in a specific tuning, the easier it got to learn and memorize new ones -- there was a "critical mass"" type of breakpoint somewhere in my 3rd year of playing. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2005 : 03:52:23 AM
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Rick,
You picked a tricky one to start with: the theme and variations *are* a bit irregular and long.
First, there really is no intro to Ozzie’s version.
The first theme/variation has this chord sequence: G, G, C, G, D, D, D, D7, D, D7, D7, G, D7, G. It ends with those 2 D7-G vamps at measure 14.
Then, to begin the 2nd variation, measure 15 is *identical* to the first measure of the first theme/variation and has a similar sequence: the 2 Gs, the C, etc., ending at measure 30 with D7-G vamps that are *identical* to those in the first “variation”. There are a couple of extra G measures in this one. So this variation is 16 measures long.
The 3rd variation starts out at 31, again with 2 Gs, and a C for the 3rd measure and ends with a D7-G vamp at frets 5, 7, 8 (like one of the earlier vamp pairs) at measure 42. So, this variation is 12 measures long.
Thankfully, Oz tells us that the ending begins at measure 43 (which is a parallel 6th sequence).
Actually, the lengths of the variations are driven by the words to the mele, that are not given in this book, as well as Ozzie’s artistry.
…Reid
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2005 : 06:36:44 AM
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quote:
btw... I don't know who Robert Deming is, or was, but I'd like to.
There WAS a Dr. Deming who first promulgated a concept called Statistical Quality Control (SQC). US companies were not particularly interested in his methods but he found great interest in Japan from the likes of Honda and Toyota. It turned out to be very fortuitous for them! His concepts are "making the rounds" again under the name of "Six Sigma".
This may be your Robert Deming (or Not).
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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