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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
 Posted - 09/25/2002 : 3:44:18 PM
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I'm recording into a portable minidisc player and need to download the file to my PC so I can burn it to a CD. I need some software to make sure the levels are okay. Any suggestions? Frankly, I do not know much about the various software options nor do I know the differences between CoolEdit and N-track. Any comments are appreciated.
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Andy |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 3:57:25 PM
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Cool Edit 2000 is a stereo .wav editor. It gives you the ability to record, convert formats, apply effects, create lists of cues, and in general do detail work on your waves.
N-track is a multitrack recorder. It gives you a tool for assigning various inputs to tracks, recording tracks, and mixing them. It includes effects, but not at the same level of detail as Cool Edit.
Cool Edit Pro combines both functions.
For your purposes, I think Cool Edit 2000 would be more useful. You can record your minidisc output, then trim it exactly as needed, adjust levels, apply reverb, eq, compression if desired.
One of the things I found when recording from my minidisc to my computer was that my soundcard had a setting for different input levels. Pro recording systems operate at much higher signal levels than consumer equipment, so I got low output from my minidisc until I figured out to switch my soundcard inputs to the more sensitive (-10db) setting.
It may be cheating to some folks, but I used the terrific editing capabilities in Cool Edit to eliminate mistakes in my recordings. When I make a booboo, I play the section over again without stopping, then in Cool Edit I use the cue list feature to mark the file into good and bad sections. Then I use the play list feature to play the good parts.
Fran
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E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 4:15:48 PM
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| The clarification is a big help. Thanks again Fran. |
Andy |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 4:26:34 PM
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Andy,
If you purchase the correct "component system" MD unit, I believe mine is a Sony MD960 (or some such), it has an S/PDIF digital output. If your sound card has S/PDIF digital in (all the better ones do) you can transfer into the PC in digital form. The MD is capable of MORE than 16 bits and in my case the transfer is 18-20 bits digital without any more conversion loss and no need to set levels. I have checked several times and there is actually valid data down there in those lower bits (but mostly noise!). Unlike the DAT standard, the MD ATRAC compression allows increases in bit depth as equipment and algorithyms are improved. Of course there is a sacrifice involved in the numerical compression process anyway, but at least it is good to know that in return you can get a lower noise floor. For what you are doing maybe the quality improvement of direct digital transfer is not worth the money needed to buy the component unit (and maybe a different sound card).
On the Editor issue I use Cool Edit Pro 1.2a mostly because it can do so much and I do some Multitracking. Speaking of the multitracking issue, I have successfully used two different MD units to record the same event and synched the two recordings in Cool Edit. The synch stays good (within a millesecond) for as long a 10 minutes at a time, beyond which, a little resync is needed, but that is not hard to do in CEP.
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 4:58:58 PM
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Unfortunately my Sharp MD-MR60 does not have an optical output, only input. Doesn't matter to me since my sound card doesn't have the digital input either. You know, I am surprisingly low tech.
I'm excited that I got a minidisc to record into now! Prior to that I did not even have a working cassette recorder in my place. I used to record song ideas into my PC's microphone but it sounds terrible and my HDD doesn't have much disk space left. |
Andy |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2002 : 11:30:25 AM
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Well, I should have at least one song, maybe two, ready to mail today. I'm capturing the file in CoolEdit right now and comparing mine to Fran's. It appears to me that my waveform has less range (if that's what it is) than Fran's.
My file:
Fran's file:
Do I need to do anything else? Is this compression? Man, am I clueless doing this!!!! |
Andy |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2002 : 12:47:15 PM
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Andy,
I can tell by looking at your trace above that the song is "Garden State Slack-Key". Look out... I think I push your leg!!
Seriously your Peak and RMS levels are a litte lower than Frans, but don't worry about that yet. It is good to have the levels a little low at the start for later processing. Here is what I would do:
First run the Hard Limiter with 0 (zero) db boost and limit set to -1 db to trim off the few excessive peaks you have (ones that hit zero db).
What I typically do at this stage (assuming that the recording sounds generally clean) is a little EQ to balance the High and Lows (if needed). Typically solo acoustic guitars recorded with a mike have some boominess in the 120Hz range but need a little boost below 80Hz or so. Also if your midrange and/or highs are a little weak you can adjust them. All this EQ stuff is done with with the Transform/Filter functions. Do not go crazy with the EQ, a little goes a long way. Watch you levels during EQ to make sure that the peaks do not go above 0db, undo and re-run the transform with a lower gain setting if the peaks are getting too high.
After EQ then Run the Hard Limiter again but now set it for enough boost so that about 1% of the peaks will get trimmed off. This is to bring the average level up which is a more modern approach commonly used in Mastering these days but which can be easily overdone. I typically use the Hard Limiter set to 5mS look-ahead and between 50mS and 80mS release. This will bring the level up and trim off the highest peaks without actual clipping. Cool Edit saves the previous versions so if you do something that sounds bad just hit the undo icon and try again. You can adjust the level this way (with the Hard Limit function) to match Frans level (as determined by your ear - which is best) or to match the RMS level (second best). The people you send this recording to will probably adjust the level again anyway, so do not overdo this either.
We won't even talk about multi-band compression (another modern over-done mastering thing) because it is a little complicated to do with Cool Edit.
Go to the COOL EDIT discussion board
http://forums.syntrillium.com/
do a keyword search on "mastering" and you will get tons of info.
They have tutorials at that site as well.
Sorry - a little long winded this time.
E hui hou..
...Lawrence
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2002 : 3:00:38 PM
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Oh yes -
I did not discuss adding Reverb or ambience to the recording either.
The reverb and impulse functions in Cool Edit can be used to add the often heard "ambience" to a recording. However the Presets are nearly useless for this and will give awful results. You will have to tweak the (many) "knobs" yourself to get acceptable results. Generally, I like very dry (no reverberation) recordings because that is what sounds most real to me when I play it back in my Living Room. Your recording probably has some "Living Room" ambience already and so is not entirely dry which makes it harder to add more ambience without sounding "funny". Most "pro" recordings have some reverb added but it is very easy to overdo it and screw up the sound this way (again). Plate reverb was very popular in the 70s and 80s (Moody Blues used a lot of it), but Room Ambience (with a good sounding room) is much warmer and more often used today. Cool Edit can accurately add room ambience (from any room in the world) using the impulse convolution function, but this is another "deep" subject.
Play with it to see (hear) what you like.
...L
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2002 : 3:07:04 PM
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Hey, Lawrence, thanks for the great discussion of mastering in Cool Edit. I've never used the limiters, but I'm going to give it a shot as soon as I get home tonight.
Andy, my approach is simpler, and undoubtedly less effective, than the one Lawrence described. I just "normalized" my recordings, but using Effects | Amplify | Normalize. This raises the level so that the highest peak is at the level you set, probably 0db or -1db. I believe Lawrence's approach will get better levels, and mine definitely needs some of the 120hz cut he's talking about.
Fran
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E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2002 : 3:08:48 PM
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Thanks for all the info. Since I don't really have the time to play around and familiarize myself with the software, I'll probably keep things as "natural" as possible meaning I won't do much of anything. Seems to me, I'm a lot less dangerous if I do nothing versus making a lot of adjustments.
I'll confess that I do not know where to find the Hard Limiter or the EQ yet so all I did was "normalize". |
Andy |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 6:35:39 PM
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How does Cool Edit compare with Home Studio?
I have homestudio but my problem is that it is just too difficult for me to use to do any significant editing. (I think if I had a midi interface it would be easier.)
Any help on this would be appreciated
Raymond
San Jose |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2002 : 10:53:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RJS
How does Cool Edit compare with Home Studio?
I have homestudio but my problem is that it is just too difficult for me to use to do any significant editing. (I think if I had a midi interface it would be easier.)
Any help on this would be appreciated
Raymond
San Jose
I don't understand how a midi interface would make editing easier.
Fran
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E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2002 : 12:27:28 PM
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hi folks,
i'm going nuts here trying to find out how to hook my Sony MD player to my audio in port. the only output it has is for the headphones. has anyone gone from headphones out to audio in? if this doesn't work, then how do you get music from an MD to your computer (so you can use Cool Edit)?
mahalo nui loa,
keith
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Keith |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2002 : 1:35:53 PM
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In general, you should be able to go headphone out->soundcard line in without any problems beyond matching the levels. I'd start with the output signal level from the MD pretty low (or even at minimum) and the software's record level at, say, 75% of max and then gradually increase the headphone volume on the MD. You want a level that gets a decent signal into the computer while avoiding overload distortion and leaving some headroom for instantaneous peaks.
I haven't had to deal with this particular situation, but as long as you start with levels turned way down, there shouldn't be any problems with overload.
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rossasaurus
Lokahi
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2002 : 2:32:08 PM
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Keith,
On the Sony MD's, the Headphone out jack is also the Line Out.
I have a model MZ-N707, and that's how it's set-up, and it's labeled only with the "omega" symbol. And the Mic In is also the Line In.
Now if only Sony would make a Mac driver...but that's another story.
Ross |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2002 : 5:14:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marzullo
hi folks,
i'm going nuts here trying to find out how to hook my Sony MD player to my audio in port. the only output it has is for the headphones. has anyone gone from headphones out to audio in? if this doesn't work, then how do you get music from an MD to your computer (so you can use Cool Edit)?
mahalo nui loa,
keith
Keith, I use a stereo mini to stereo mini, connect the headphone jack to the line in on the soundcard, and turn the soundcard gain all the way up. Then I turn up the headphone volume as high as it will go before it distorts. With this configuration I get a decent, but not great, signal level into my PC recorder. If your soundcard has a way to set the input to +4db (pro line level) or -10db (consumer audio level) the -10db setting will probably work better.
You use Cool Edit to do the recording. Open Cool Edit, assign the sound card line in as the input source. Create a new file (I use 32 bits and 88.2 K settings, which make big files but theoretically sound better) then hit record in Cool Edit and Play on the MD. After you've done your editting and added effects, if you recorded at the higher settings, you can Edit | Convert Sample Type to convert the file to 16 bit, 14.4K format for a standard CD wave file. Be sure you use Windows PCM format. There are several .wav formats in Cool Edit which include compression and are not compatible with audio CDs.
Fran
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E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
Edited by - Fran Guidry on 09/28/2002 5:44:33 PM |
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