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Francie
Aloha
USA
15 Posts |
 Posted - 11/29/2005 : 07:08:46 AM
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I am seeking advice on how to learn to improvise (in taro patch). I am a beginner and have played many of the tunes in Ozzie's book but so far have not come across any specific information about beginning steps to improvisation. I realize it is an individual and creative process but like most other such processes there are usually some beginning steps that someone who understands the process and is a good teacher can point out to get a person started.I am learning some chord positions and turn-arounds as well as strums and parallel sixths and thirds positions but where to go from there? I guess the question is: How do I put it altogether?
Francie
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2005 : 08:48:14 AM
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Hi Francie -
Well, since you live in Ashland, the short answer is to give me a call. I'm in Ruch, and I teach. One or two lessons would suffice to get you pointed in the right direction.
The long answer is to learn to listen to how the song is structured and learn which licks and double stops "go with" the various chords. Jamming in TaroPatch is less about playing lead in than blues-based guitar styles. What you want to do is play around with the melody and chords of the song, emellishing here, leaving something out there.
So how to you learn to do that? By learning to listen to both what you are doing and what the rest of the players are doing. It's not hard, and it can be taught.
It's also the biggest bugaboo for guitarists who've learned from TAB, I'm afraid. That's why all of my workshops for the last two years have been on improvising...
Short answer #2: Attend one of the camps. If you can't come to Hawaii, come to Lark and hang with Kevin Brown. Nothing like living and breathing slack key for a week to make you a better player. Food's good, too.
cheers,
Mark |
Edited by - Mark on 11/29/2005 08:50:27 AM |
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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2005 : 09:14:09 AM
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Francie,
Do not despair if these are the only two respnses you get to this question. It is not that it is a silly question, or that nobody likes you, it's just that Mark's concise answer said all that is necessary on the subject. If you do get a lot of posts, they will simply re-hash the same bacics Mark mentioned;
get some lessons
listen over and over and pick apart the songs (tune your guitar to a recording you like and play along, or get Slack Tracks)
attend a camp
have a friend play the melody (or record yourself doing the same) and play along
Good luck, and enjoy the journey |
Karl
Frozen North |
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Francie
Aloha
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2005 : 10:19:15 AM
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Thanks for the encouragement Karl and Mark. I will give you a call Mark. I'll probably try to learn some chord postions real well first so I have some basis for a lesson.
Francie |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2005 : 11:59:10 AM
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What Karl said what Mark said.. :-)
(Yeah, I'm a PITA.)
But, Francie, it ain't easy, you have to live it, and I still can't do it (althgough everyone knows that I have no talent). So, don't beat yourself up if it comes slowly. But it is really worth trying.
...Reid
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Edited by - Reid on 11/29/2005 12:00:04 PM |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2005 : 1:55:39 PM
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| I improvise all the time while practicing. Others may call it "making mistakes" but I prefer to take a more positive outlook. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2005 : 2:46:02 PM
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Craig,
I think that is called "making it your own".
I like your style. ;-) |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2005 : 3:16:48 PM
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Actually. I think I have something sensible to say about "improvisation".
There is improvisation, then there is improvisation, and then there is improvisation.
Coming from a "classical" background, we don't actually know what you mean when you say that word.
Mark took it to mean that you wanted to know what you should play when you were playing with other (more or less) accomplished slack key players. That is what we all want to know and that is the hardest thing to learn. We all want to sound like a "Band" but we mostly sound like I don't know what.
Improvisation can mean an advanced form of "noodling". Fran Guidry has, in his humble way, said that one or more of his pieces are just "noodling". But, that is improvisation. My supremely talented wife, Sarah, gets all her ideas for great songs from "noodling" and Fran's songs are swell, too. That is kinda hard and I can tell you that I am Sarah's editor, which just means that I have a good ear and lousy hands.
Then,there is improvisation as a personal arrangement of a well-known song. That is the easiest. You can think about it and do the standard harmonic stuff. Do the 3rds and the 6ths when the single notes suggest it. And the obvious turnarounds and ornamentations. It is a vocabulary: I stopped cataloging at the 19th variation of the D7 to G turnaround at the 1st to 5th fret in Taropatch, and I never even bothered with 6ths turnarounds because I would be up in the hundreds.
So, if you think improvisation means what Mark took it to mean, you need to be with other slack key players a lot (Slack Tracks will help) and you need to know the "vocabulary" of this art form and you need to know what the 100s of songs sound like ( that is easier than it sounds if you are a freak like us).
About chords, which you mentioned. That is sooooo "classical". You will come to know that "chords" are broken up and most often played sequentially in slack key. There are a few chords that you need to plunk down at once. One is the C at the 1st 2 frets. Another is the G at the 789 frets. Another is the C barre at the 5th fret; and the A at the 2nd fret (usually played as an A7 with the little finger up at he 5th). Other than than that, there are few (maybe the C at the 10th fret). George Kahumoku and Ed have produced a paper on all the chords.
So, have fun, but this is not Segovia.
...Reid
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Francie
Aloha
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2005 : 5:17:04 PM
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Well, Reid I have no delusions of playing along with others at this point. I just want to learn to play a little on my own without following tab. As a classical player I just read the music someone else has written and try to play with a little ligado and enjoy it especially when I play duets. With slack key I would like to be able to play something, "anything" really without being tied to the tab. With a lot of work and listening I am sure I will eventually get a handle on it but I just thought someone could offer some very basic, did I say "very basic"? tips on how to get started.
Francie |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2005 : 6:26:11 PM
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Classical players always seem to have trouble "cutting loose."
(That comes from experience.)
What helped me most was a few lessons.
Don't wait to learn chords -- If you know parrallel6ths (open/closed) you know enough. |
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chunky monkey
Ha`aha`a
USA
1018 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2005 : 05:59:32 AM
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Francie,
At the risk of this appearing to be a shameless plug, check into Slack Tracks (www.slacktracks.com), as suggested by Karl. Despite being financially hooked in to these, I can say that they really are a great way to develop your own chops while playing along with a band. |
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Steven Espaniola
Lokahi
225 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2005 : 07:52:02 AM
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| A good way to learn improvisation is to forget all of the structured training you've received and try to create from within. You have to be very comfortable with the chord structure, melody, your strumming/picking ability so that it is almost an afterthought and you're not bogged down with the technical aspect. Improvising does not have to be flashy (you can even use just a single note and improvise rhythmically), but it should be tasteful. Listen to jazz references like Monk & Mingus for inspiration and ideas. |
Steven |
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Pua Kai
Ha`aha`a
USA
1007 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2005 : 10:23:24 AM
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Hi Francie -
Fool around with songs you know. Learning the regular chords in taropatch is good to start - G, C and D7. Hawai'ian songs use more than these, but you'll pick those up too. You will find that it's fun to be able to go up and down the neck with those "parallel sixths".
Also, if you capo on the 5th fret and play in C, you'll extend the songs you play and the chimes will work easily.
Have fun!!! That's the most important part.
n
PS: Be sure to go visit Mark Nelson!! |
Edited by - Pua Kai on 11/30/2005 10:24:39 AM |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2164 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2005 : 4:43:02 PM
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| The guy that taught me told me, "Can play anykine 'long as it fit." No stress out. Just have fun. |
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Ray Sowders
Akahai
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2005 : 12:58:59 PM
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Aloha Francie,
I do plan to address a little on this subject in up coming videos after the New Year. Keep an eye out for them, maybe they will help. What everyone says here is good. There is no one way to do this, and different opinions may help you find your own way. For now, here’s a simple suggestion you might find helpful. Pick a simple song (let's call it song 1) that your familiar with. See if you can find another song (let's call that song 2) with a similar chord progression. Use the melody from song 2, within song 1. It may appear overly simple but lots of folks do this. Main thing, keep playing, don't give up, memorize the songs as soon as you can (to get away from the tab) and learn as many songs as you can. You may have more to draw from then you think. Good luck. Aloha, Ray
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2005 : 10:28:25 AM
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Aloha e Francie,
I don't know if anyone's said quite this. If so, *nevermind* as Roseanne Rosanna Danna would say.
What I found helpful to begin improvising was to have a "vocabulary" I was familiar with. By vocabulary, I mean small segments of melody that can be mixed and matched: musical words to make a musical sentence. You can then play around stringing them together in different ways. (Some will say this is not true improvisation, and I won't argue, but it is certainly a place for a beginner to start making music that is fun.)
So, having half a dozen vamps ready at one's fingertips, one can start by playing around with those in different sequences and making it smooth.
One can learn other "chunks" of melody from pieces, things one really likes or can do well, and borrow them. Getting familiar with inserting chimes in lieu of notes lower on the strings offers more "vocabulary".
I've learned several useful bits from watching another player. I never remember all of what they did, but perhaps one particular move really strikes me, and I work on getting it down.
Once you have some (ever-expanding) collection of vocabulary bits, you can just "noodle," going from one to another, and try other sounds inbetween, and/or you can try to organize your chunks into an 8 or 10 bar line. Part of that is easy: you end with a vamp or two!
And if you are improvising while playing along with others, you can draw on your familiarity with the vamps and chimes to play something that harmonizes with what they are playing.
It comes back to having (learning for yourself) a vocabulary that you can draw on at will, and practicing smooth transitions.
Hope that makes sense!
Aloha,
Sarah
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