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cgriffin
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2002 : 5:09:24 PM
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I'll hopefully be ordering a custom built guitar during the next several months, and I'm wondering if I can get some advice from the readers of this forum as I hope to be playing mainly slack-key and slack-key inspired music on it.
I already have a classical guitar with cedar top and rosewood back & sides, so I plan to get something quite different for my next guitar. I'm thinking of an OM guitar with an Engleman spruce top. This seems a great tonewood for fingerstyle playing, and I could strum it too if I choose.
For back and sides, I can choose the wood. I'd like to get Koa, but that adds several hundred dollars to the price, so I'm trying to make up my mind between Indian Rosewood, mohagany, and walnut. There are a lot of resources on the web which discus the various merits of top woods, but I haven't found anything which talks about the qualities of different woods for back and sides.
The sound I'm after - soft, responsive, but deep and powerful also. I don't know if that helps, or even makes sense. I would like to have a lot of resonance and sustain with rich harmonics.
If Koa is going to be a whole lot better than these other woods, I could be convinced to splurge and go for it! But I'm really constrained by price here.
Many thanks!
Chris
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Chris Griffin
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 5:52:58 PM
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Chris,
You've asked one tough question. I'm really happy with my dream axe which has walnut back and sides and a spruce top. In my case, I bought it used and in a way hoped for the best. Fortunately, I'm very happy with the instrument.
If you're ordering a custom built guitar, you have the benefit of working with the luthier. Explain what type(s) of music you want to play, what kind of sound you want, etc. That is what custom built instruments are all about after all. Just be sure to have an extensive discussion with the luthier. Do not be shy. The builder needs to understand what it is you'd like created and ultimately the goal is to build an instrument to your exact needs and specifications.
Good luck with it. |
Andy |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 8:09:07 PM
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I've read several recommendations for walnut in various newsgroups, but I'm far from an expert in the matter.
Craig |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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wdf
Ha`aha`a
USA
1153 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 8:23:23 PM
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Chris,
Go to a large, well stocked, acoustic guitar store and play as many different guitars by as many different makers using a many different materials as you can find. Then make your choice.
Who knows, maybe you'll end up with graphite!?! (eh.. Keith, Jerry) |
Dusty |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 8:25:55 PM
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I'll second Andy on this--the key word in your post is "custom," and that strongly implies working over design and details with the builder, who will have his or her own set of tastes and strengths.
The builders I trust most tend to say that it's less the particular woods than what the luthier does with them. So try to articulate the qualities you're after, play a lot of guitars that seem to match your ideal, and talk to the builder about it.
That said, I'd put in a word for a redwood top with rosewood or walnut back/sides. I have a 15-inch flat-top fingerpicker and a 17-inch archtop with that combination (different builders) and they're both remarkable guitars.
Of course, I play more slack key on a Guild D-40, a 1920 Martin 0-18, a 1927 Washburn parlor, or a Baby Taylor more than I do my redwood hand-built, so go figure.
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2002 : 8:40:48 PM
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I'll add my $0.02 here to agree with Andy and Russell - let the builder know what you're after, especially that you'll be playing in altered tunings. Tonewoods have their own characteristics, but the better builders claim it's how it's built that really matters. So a stock Martin, built to a standard spec, will sound different with different woods. A skilled luthier adjusts the specs on a custom built guitar.
This is pretty exciting! When do you think it will be shipped to you? |
Pauline |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2002 : 10:59:59 AM
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So who's building your guitar for you?
Of the three woods you mentioned, walnut, mahogany, or Indian rosewood, I believe rosewood has the most potential to provide the tone your describe. I think it would be preferable to koa, as well. You described the classic rosewood tone.
So maybe talk with your luthier about cocobolo. It is a step in the direction of Brazilian rosewood, harder and with less damping than Indian, and even more likely to give the voice you described in your message. It will be an upcharge, however.
Fran
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E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
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cgriffin
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2002 : 11:47:16 AM
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the follow-ups. I'm thinking of working with Jim Worland of Worland guitars (www.worlandguitars.com). He has incredible prices and I've heard great things about him from people who he built guitars for.
One of my driving factors is that I already own a classical guitar with a cedar top and rosewood back and sides. The other is that it's going to be a stretch to pay even the base price, so I'm not going to go for something too exotic as it will be hundreds more.
From the posts so far, I'm guessing that Walnut might be a good choice as a compromise between Mohogany and Rosewood. Also, I like the idea of having a wood which grows native to North America.
I'll certainly take everyone's advice and go to many guitar stores and play instruments with different woods to try to get a handle on it.
Jim is a great fellow from what I can tell, and I'm sure he'll make me a beautiful instrument irregardless of what wood he uses. I've worked out all the other details besides back&side wood. It's going to be a 12-fret OM model with Engelman spruce top. It will have a 1&7/8 inch nut and no dot markers on the frets. Jim is going to do some special stuff with the bracing to give the guitar a bit more sustain, I'm going to have to trust his expertise in that department!
Will I need a cutaway to access the higher frets to play most of the slack key "standards"?
Chris
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Chris Griffin
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2002 : 3:39:46 PM
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Chris, I think your initial ideas are good ones. About walnut: there are several of us here that have McCollums with walnut backs and sides and love them. They are *Claro* walnut (there are various varieties) Claro is just wonderful for slack key (especially with my favorite redwood top - my own personal preference, you understand). So make sure you know what walnut species you get - if you choose that route. Englemann is great for sensitive fingerstyle (we have two with Englemann tops)["we" consists of my wife Sarah and me and she is the real player, I just hack] but it doesn't have lots of "headroom", which means it "clips" or saturates much like a piece of electronic gear, when played hard. The ones we have are fine for the way we play, though - lots of sweet volume for little plucking input force. Just a niggling note: 12 fretters are usually called 000s (in the Martin nomenclature, anyway). Also, we have never found a cutaway necessary for slack key (or much of anything else, either). On all of our guitars, we can easily get to the 17th fret while still having our thumbs on the heel. And we have small hands. We do have one cutaway - a Rosewood/Englemann Blanchard Bristlecone, but we bought that rather despite the cutaway instead of because of it. I also like your notion of a rather wide neck. We were scared of them at first, but they offer a fingerstylist lots of room to maneuver, especially if the string spacing at the saddle is commensurately wide. With your classical guitar experience (which I assume has a 2" nut), you will find that the relative proportions are similar, in that steel strings are narrower than nylon. You will find it very familiar.
Good luck,
...Reid |
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cgriffin
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2002 : 5:09:35 PM
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Hi JWN,
Thanks for dropping in. I'm very excited about this project, as you might have guessed. I am indeed looking for a really nice steel string guitar to complement my nylon-string Asturias classical guitar.
My fingernails are not 3" long, but I've got enough nail sticking beyond the end of my finger to get a nice tone ;-)
So Keola (my hero) plays with 2-inch wide steel string necks? I have a good friend who has a guitar with a 1 & 7/8 inch neck and he claims that this gives the same spacing between strings as a classical guitar because the nylon strings are little bit thicker. I played his guitar and it feels quite comfortable to me, I'd hesitate to get a 2" nut because even though I've played a lot of classical guitar, it still feels a bit too wide for me. I'll consider that, though.
I'm going for the 12-fret model because the 12-fret guitars I've played definitely have a better sound than the 14-fret versions, due to the bridge being further down the body. This is one thing I really like about the classical guitar design. However, I'm not getting Jim's "Classic Steel", I'm getting the 12-fret OM so that I can have a bigger sound for playing in large group settings.
I'm personally inclined to not get a cut-away because I don't like the way they look, however, I would consider it if not getting one is going to make certain pieces less accessible to me. On the other hand, I have no problem with reaching my hand around and up to get those parallel sixth's. I can certainly get to those higher frets on my classical when needed, so I'll do the same with the steel string guitar.
I probably won't have the money to order the guitar til January because I'm mostly broke and going through a divorce right now ;-(
But I'm still excited about working out the details!!!
The two last issues I need to decide on is the wood for back and sides, and having a flat or rounded fingerboard.
I'll get either Koa or Walnut for back and sides; I'm not sure which yet. I might get Walnut just cause it's less expensive. A flat fingerboard would be more like my other guitar, so maybe that's what I should go for. Does anyone know of a good reason to go for a rounded fingerboard instead?
I still have to make it to a guitar store to play some more instruments. That might make all of the difference.
Thanks for your comments,
Chris
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Chris Griffin
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2002 : 6:53:07 PM
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Chris,
I'll make a guess - I think the rounded fretboards are for barring ease. You'll be going from < 90 lbs tension to at least 120 lbs tension, so you might like the bit of help that a rounded fingerboard gives. For the same reason, the 19th fret on nylon may be easier to play than on steel, a cutaway might be a big help. How about trying out 12-fret guitars at a shop?
Of course, barring and playing over the body may not be a problem at all to you while my hands are comparatively weak. |
Pauline |
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cgriffin
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2002 : 10:43:12 AM
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I've played guitar on and off for 20 years, including years of playing this horrible plastic/fiberglass Ovation 12-string guitar.
So my fingers have what it takes to deal with the extra tension. I do need to get them back into shape, however. I'm thinking of going ahead with the flat fingerboard with 1&7/8 inch nut. I'm actually OK playing a 1 & 3/4 inch nut guitar, so the 1 & 7/8 will be fine. I still think that the 2" nut on my classical feels a little funny!
I'm going to get either Claro Walnut or Koa. One concern is that Koa seems to be overharvested, and I don't want to be a personal contributor to unsustainable harvesting. On the other hand it is so amazingly beautiful!
Does anyone have a sense of which of these woods would do better over time? And which would be more durable? |
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Chris Griffin
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2002 : 12:50:08 PM
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First, about koa overharvesting: that has been true even in the recent past. A woodworker and koa dealer in Akaka Falls told me that the wood *currently* being cut is of such poor quality that he has stopped dealing in it. That said, there are now koa plantations that should restore the flow in some years. It is also true that I have been told by several luthiers that there are very large koa stashes on the mainland that are quite sufficient to take up the slack (at a price, of course). Jean Larrivee made a big deal on his web site about the tons of great koa he acquired and Martin scored a big load on the Big Island a few years ago. I also have visited James and Jean Goodall in Kailua, Kona and their koa supply is enormous (as is their entire supply of all woods - their wood room looks like a lumber yard). And they are just one shop of very many small shops.
As for durability of koa and walnut: there is not much to differentiate them, both are fantastically stable and resilient when dried well initially. Koa has been made into canoes, floors, furniture, walls, etc. for hundreds of years and those objects still exist. Walnut has also served similar purposes (including gunstocks) for as long or longer. When bent or carved into guitar parts, they behave in very similar ways. I can't see that it is an issue. My koa and walnut guitars will outlive me by far.
...Reid |
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cgriffin
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2002 : 2:21:46 PM
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What part of the world is Claro Walnut harvested in?
On his website Jim has a beautiful picture of an Engleman top guitar with Koa sides and Rosewood binding. It is a 12-string version of his "classical steel". The contrast between the spruce and the Rosewood looks quite nice, doesn't it?
http://www.worlandguitars.com/gallery-cl-stl-koa12.html
Chris
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Chris Griffin
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2002 : 6:13:15 PM
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Claro walnut comes from California (actually, Andy's, Sarah's, mine, and I think Fran Guidry's, came from the same tree near the Sutter Mill), but the species hybridization of walnut is a bit complicated.
This is from Harvey Leach's web site and he got it from a walnut supplier, California Walnut Designs, where you can learn whole lots more about various walnut species.
Claro Walnut (Juglans hindsii)
The name Claro probably comes from the Spanish influence in early California history when the Franciscan Fathers were building the west coast missions. Their arrival in California, in the early 1700's, marks the first recorded planting in North America of Persian Walnut, Juglans regia . Upon the Spaniards arrival in the New World, they discovered a species of walnut unlike any other they had seen before. Another century would pass before the English botanist , Richard B. Hinds, would catalog this new species of the genus Juglans which today bares his name, Juglans hindsii, or as it is more commonly referred to as, Claro Walnut. Claro is a Spanish term, meaning clear, light, or bright. Bright certainly describes the wood since it exhibits such an assortment of colors, from reds to golds, mixed with tans, grays, black, and browns. Claro Walnut was discovered, as far as the oldest records show, growing in three localities in California:
The valley of Walnut Creek in Contra Costa County
The banks of the Sacramento River, particularly at Walnut Grove
The Wooden Valley, east of Napa.
It was from these original groves that in the mid 1800's the famous pioneer John Bidwell began propagating California Claro Walnut at his Rancho Chico Nursery in Chico California.
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cgriffin
Aloha
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 3:36:35 PM
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I've changed my mind. I decided I want Koa for my guitar. I'm still vascillating between getting the 12-fret OM (OOO) and Jim's "Classic Steel". I'll have to just go play some OM guitars with a similar shape to see what I'll really like.
Thanks to everyone for your conversation! |
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Chris Griffin
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