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slackkeymike
Lokahi
440 Posts |
 Posted - 07/17/2006 : 4:47:16 PM
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Thanks Mika, the last explanation was what I was looking for!
Mike |
Aloha, Mike |
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hapagirl
Aloha
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2006 : 11:20:35 AM
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Aloha kakou,
I am also a newbie, to ki ho’alu and to guitar itself and to music-playing in general (though I am really good at pressing the play button on my cd player). Last month a friend gave me a beautiful ¾ size blue guitar and as I took it out of its box and touched its smooth neck, I had a vision of my future self sitting on a wooden bench at someone’s backyard pa’ina, conjuring up magical slack key sounds from each little flick of my nimble fingertips. Wow!
I e-mailed Andy Wang about this dream and he referred me to Ozzie Kotani’s book, which I am using now. I also printed out Uncle Mahi’s postings on Maori Brown Eyes and the helpful tablature—mahalo nui for that to you both. And I bought Keola Beamer’s Learn to Play dvd, but it’s way too advanced for me. However, it was helpful to be able to watch his fingers closely. My biggest problem is when my small and thin fingers somehow become quite fat and clumsy when I play and they touch other strings by accident. I have a million newbie questions, and rather than keep bugging Andy, I thought I would bug the whole taropatch board and maybe get some differing opinions and advice. In return, I offer my deepest gratitude and a hula performance if you come to New York. I am from Oahu (’91 Roosevelt grad) but live in New York City for now.
Here are some of my questions:
1. When plucking, how far in between the strings do you put the plucking finger? Watching Keola, it almost looks like he only uses his fingernails. I am currently using my fingertip, about 1/8 to ¼ inch.
2. When holding down the strings with the left hand, how do you stop from making the sound of your finger squeaking on the fret?
Is your left wrist bent to the left or right when holding the strings down?
4. How close to the sound hole do you pluck?
5. Is volume a big part of playing to give a song a good feel?
6. In Taro Patch tuning, is the bottom string supposed to sound that twangy and tinny?
7. Is there a place to learn what the different chords are in Taro Patch?
8. Can you put a string back on after you have taken it off the guitar?
9. Is there an obvious way to have a smoother sound, where the notes flow into each other rather than sounding separate?
10. When playing and you strike the wrong note, is there a way to recover without people knowing? (wishful thinking, but it never hurts to ask!)
11. Is there another good source for beginners besides Ozzie’s book?
Mahalo nui loa for reading!
Jennifer |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2006 : 2:13:53 PM
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First thing: John, AKA jwn, told you most. I am just adding a bit.
1. When plucking, how far in between the strings do you put the plucking finger? Watching Keola, it almost looks like he only uses his fingernails. I am currently using my fingertip, about 1/8 to ¼ inch.
Touching the sounding string with flesh first is important. It damps the prior note and gives you a sense of where to start plucking. (called proprioceptive sense, for the idiots like me) also it is called a "rest stroke" - essential.
2. When holding down the strings with the left hand, how do you stop from making the sound of your finger squeaking on the fret?
Major issue: Lift Off and plunk down: don't be lazy and slide. Andy doesn't squeak; Sarah *rarely* squeaks, Dave doesn't squeak, Keola doesn't squeak, Ozzie doesn't squeak, etc.
Is your left wrist bent to the left or right when holding the strings down?
Neither. Be straight. That's called ergonomics.
4. How close to the sound hole do you pluck?
The neutral sound is in the middle of the soundhole. The brash sound is toward the bridge; the mellow sound is toward the fretboard. If you are doing the usual repeats of the vamp, try doing the mellow, then the brash. Mix 'em up - it is a matter of artistry and variation.
5. Is volume a big part of playing to give a song a good feel?
No. Who are you playing for? Volume is for audiences; beauty is for you. Besides, microphones and amps take care of the volume issue.
6. In Taro Patch tuning, is the bottom string supposed to sound that twangy and tinny?
Never. Be nahenahe always.
7. Is there a place to learn what the different chords are in Taro Patch?
Yes. Look for the Alternate Tuning app here on Tp.net. Actually look for everything in the archives, too. Search. Be agressive. We will still love you.
8. Can you put a string back on after you have taken it off the guitar?
Of course not.
9. Is there an obvious way to have a smoother sound, where the notes flow into each other rather than sounding separate?
Yes. Keola defines it. Hold the left hand down while you are plucking other strings (kinda bad description, sorry). Let the notes last and ring. Don't transition quickly; don't damp. Have a guitar with with 20 second sustain. Play slowly.
10. When playing and you strike the wrong note, is there a way to recover without people knowing? (wishful thinking, but it never hurts to ask!)
Yes. Slide into the "correct" note. Then it is a feature, not a bug. It sounds wonderful, too.
11. Is there another good source for beginners besides Ozzie’s book?
Sure. Look in the proper place on this site. Look, look, search, work. Ron Loo is in the same league as Ozzie.
Play, but don't hurt your wrists or tendons. Fingertip pain is good; other pain is not. Keep your wrists straight.
Like I said: John said it first.
...Reid
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Pua Kai
Ha`aha`a
USA
1007 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2006 : 05:19:32 AM
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#11
Keoki's DVD is EXCELLENT for beginning..... |
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hapagirl
Aloha
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2006 : 06:17:46 AM
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Mahalo to jwn, Reid, Pua Kai, and the Taropatch community!
I'll check out Keoki's dvd and Ron Loo's new cd set, but I've also discovered some of the amazing resources on and linked to this site. Just reading through many of the postings was an education in slack key culture. Thanks so much to jwn and Reid for answering all of my questions and sharing your experience. I know I have much to learn through practice, but I wanted to get some of the technical stuff right so I don't learn the wrong way. Thus, please bear with me through a few follow-up questions:
a. Still having trouble understanding the fingernail v. fingertip plucking thing. Reid, I know you say to touch the sounding string with flesh first, and jwn you say that you use nails but a little bit of flesh gets into the act too. Does that mean that nails are generally always used, with a small touch of fingertip first? If so I won't cut my nails on the right hand as I have on the left, but if the fingernail plucking technique is only used sometimes then I will cut them as they get in the way otherwise. I do like the louder and more resonant sound that the fingernail technique gives. But sometimes it sounds like I am plucking twice, with my fingertip first and my nail second.
b. If plucking with fingernails, how does one prevent the string sometimes slipping on the nail?
c. Are your plucking fingers at an angle so that you are actually plucking with the upper right corner of the fingers, or is it more straight-on? Keola Beamer seems to use the sideways style but maybe it was so that the camera could capture the view?
d. My bottom string sounds the loudest and it is pretty tinny-- when it vibrates it is like the high buzz of a mosquito. The tuning thing says it is in tune to D. Is there anything I'm doing wrong? The reason I asked about the string replacement is because I wanted to hear how different types of strings sound, so I wanted to take off the ones I have on now (which are light steel) and put on some medium steel and some nylon to see the difference, but also to be able to use the old ones again. I guess it is Reid's view that that should not be one and jwn sounded pretty lukewarm about it too.
e. What kind of strings do most people use?
f. Are there any practicing techniques people use when they are not near their guitar? I try visualizing on the subway, but maybe there are others.
g. Reid, you say that when plucking,
"Touching the sounding string with flesh first is important. It damps the prior note and gives you a sense of where to start plucking." and also
"Let the notes last and ring. Don't transition quickly; don't damp."
I have a dim sense of what damping might be, but should you damp or should you not damp? And if you do damp, does that mean you use the fingertip but in not damping you do not? (sorry if I seem hung up on the fingertip/nail thing.
h. I'm having a picnic in Brooklyn's Prospect Park on August 13. (Anyone who would like to come is invited, please e-mail me for details.) I'm thinking of playing Molehu from Ozzie's book for my friends. I can play it perfectly (well, you know, perfect = no slipped/missed notes and decent timing) by myself at home but the second someone comes over, it's another story. Any advice on playing for others?
Mahalo all! Stay out of the heat and have a wonderful day.
Jennifer
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2006 : 08:07:59 AM
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Jennifer,
I'll just answer the "tinny sound" of the low D string question.
There are several "guages" of strings. If your guitar is brand new, chances are that the strings were put on by the manufacturer to optimize what most people play (and to save $$). Face it, most people play -- TIGHT KEY, or standard EADGBE tuning. The guage of the strings and the standard tuning creates a specific amount of tension between the bridge and the nut. To counteract this (high) tension, the guitar builder will use several methods to ensure the neck does not snap off, the bridge doesn't fly away, and most importantly -- the strings don't rest on all of the frets or so far away that you can't use your fingers to create a new note or chord.
When you change the tuning of your guitar to a "slacker" tuning (e.g, TaroPatch G -- DGDGBD) you ease the tension the strings make between the bridge and the nut. Usually, the "truss rod", buried deep inside your guitar neck, pulls back on the neck and brings all of the strings closer to the fretboard. When you play the low D string two things are now happening. The D note is a lower frequency and the movement/vibration of the string to produce the note is "bigger" (technically a longer wavelength). The second is, the string is now closer to the frets (due to lowered tension) and it tends to "buzz" very slightly at the highest fret and make that "tinny" sound.
So what can you do? Many will say, live with it -- that's the way it is. But there are some things you can do to make your guitar sound better to you (the key is "sound better to you").
 You can change strings to a better quality string. There have been many posts on strings -- I won't go into it. More $$$ does not always mean better sound.
 You can change the "guage" of your strings. I would suggest a slight modification at first, say from light guage to medium-light. This will INCREASE the amount of tension the strings place on your guitar and make them all rise slightly higher above your fretboard and the tinny sound may go away. The tradeoff is that you will have to apply more pressure with your fretting fingers and those NEW callouses you are forming on your fretting hand are going to hurt more for a while .
 You can take your guitar to the shop or manufacturer, and tell them the tuning you play in most often (say Open G, DGDGBD) and ask them to adjust the truss rod for your strings and your tuning. As a newbie, I would not suggest you doing this by yourself. It is as hard a truing a new bicycle wheel by adjusting all of the spokes.
I would try the first and last solutions. If you go with the last one you may be able to use a lower guage string at the same time and make the fretting a little easier. Your first reaction will be to pluck the string harder to increase volume -- don't do it -- that is what the volume knob on an amplifier is for. Plucking harder only makes more unwanted noises come out of nowhere.
(Take Care) |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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Pua Kai
Ha`aha`a
USA
1007 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2006 : 08:30:23 AM
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As Mike says, there are other threads that have dealt with some of these issues. Have you found "search" in little letters at the top right? That's a good place to go. For most everything said, there will be other ways, and almost everyone will finish with, "what works for you".
As far as fingers, nails, picks - there's a lot written, a lot of opinions and a lot of different sounds to be obtained. Some people file their nails at a specific angle to catch the string "just so". Some use fake nails - there are lots of warnings about these. Some like Uncle Dennis Kamakahi paint them black...
Some are obscenely long, others broken and missing. You can only play just so loud with just the pads of your fingers. You can play louder with steel strings. If you get used to using picks, you'll probably play more consistently. Don't worry about "a little pad and then the nail" unless it makes it better for you.
By the way, to adjust the action - by doing something with the truss rod mentioned above by Mike - made a world of difference in my playing and only cost about $20.
Another thing that has been shown to me both ways is to anchor your right hand with a finger on the pick guard. And Ozzie says, don't get in that habit because it'll really limit your playing.
So listen to what everyone says and you'll probably find bits and pieces that work the best for you. It sounds like you're well on your way and having fun, and for me, that's what it's all about.
n |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2006 : 09:51:46 AM
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a. Still having trouble understanding the fingernail v. fingertip plucking thing. Reid, I know you say to touch the sounding string with flesh first, and jwn you say that you use nails but a little bit of flesh gets into the act too. Does that mean that nails are generally always used, with a small touch of fingertip first?
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Yes, mostly.
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If so I won't cut my nails on the right hand as I have on the left, but if the fingernail plucking technique is only used sometimes then I will cut them as they get in the way otherwise. I do like the louder and more resonant sound that the fingernail technique gives. But sometimes it sounds like I am plucking twice, with my fingertip first and my nail second.
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I think you are putting the finger too far in between the strings - but can't really tell cuz I can't see you. Maybe lighten up and use less force, too.
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b. If plucking with fingernails, how does one prevent the string sometimes slipping on the nail?
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Aha! It depends on the shape and size of the nail, the angle of attack and probably a bunch of other things. Some people like the "slip". I use Scott Tennant's (Pumping Nylon - even though I play steel string) flattish angle cut so that the right corner of the nail acts as a pick. It never hooks like a pointed nail will. Others here use that shaping method, too. Your nail needs mto be only about 1/16" above the finger pad - not as long as you may see pros use, but everyone has a different preference.
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c. Are your plucking fingers at an angle so that you are actually plucking with the upper right corner of the fingers, or is it more straight-on? Keola Beamer seems to use the sideways style but maybe it was so that the camera could capture the view?
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The ideal is plane of finger perpendicular to string. "T" So, the nail is parallel to string. You can't copy Keola or many other very long time players. Keola's hands have remodeled over time - note the distortion of his thumb. He and others have become guitar playing devices.
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d. My bottom string sounds the loudest and it is pretty tinny-- when it vibrates it is like the high buzz of a mosquito. The tuning thing says it is in tune to D. Is there anything I'm doing wrong? The reason I asked about the string replacement is because I wanted to hear how different types of strings sound, so I wanted to take off the ones I have on now (which are light steel) and put on some medium steel and some nylon to see the difference, but also to be able to use the old ones again. I guess it is Reid's view that that should not be one and jwn sounded pretty lukewarm about it too.
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It probably is as Mika`ele said. But, think about what you have done and what you would do to a reused string. It is bent, both at saddle and tuning machine. It is dented above several of the frets, it is stretched due to the tension of tuning, and now you are going to further damage it by doing it again? What do you think it will sound like? How long before it breaks and scares you? Strings are like razor blades. Expect to buy lots and expect to change quite often.
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e. What kind of strings do most people use?
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The kind that sounds best to them. I am a John Pearse PB Light diehard, but use other kinds on different guitars.
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f. Are there any practicing techniques people use when they are not near their guitar? I try visualizing on the subway, but maybe there are others.
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You got it.
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g. Reid, you say that when plucking,
"Touching the sounding string with flesh first is important. It damps the prior note and gives you a sense of where to start plucking." and also
"Let the notes last and ring. Don't transition quickly; don't damp."
I have a dim sense of what damping might be, but should you damp or should you not damp? And if you do damp, does that mean you use the fingertip but in not damping you do not? (sorry if I seem hung up on the fingertip/nail thing.
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Sorry for being confusing. Damping is stopping the sound by touching the string. Damping with plucking finger pad, milliseconds before pulling through with a stoke is good. Damping by fretting early or on purpose with fretting fingers is not a good thing for slack key. Guys like Leo Kottke damp with left hand every note because they think a note should have an exact duration. That's not this style. So, try to keep your fretting fingers on the string at the same place that defined the note as long as you can - that is usually fairly easy, because there is often a pluck of an open (mostly bass) string in between melody or rhythm notes that need fretting next. Go for open strings whenever you can - there is often a choice, since the same note occurs in different places on the fretboard (depends on the tuning, of course).
For instance, in Molehu's intro and outro, there is a parallel 6th run. Keep your left hand in one place for 4 notes (2 bass 2 treble), lift off all simultaneously, plunk down the 2 fingers simultaneously on the 1st and 3rd strings at the next fret combo, pluck all 4 notes while holding, etc. At the 1st and 2nd fret C chord, keep all your fingers down on the frets all during it (there is one lift off string 1, however), and so on.
Think that you are playing a 4 note chord every time you put your left hand down and think that all the notes in that chord must be heard at the same time even though you are plucking them sequentially.
...Reid
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Edited by - Reid on 08/03/2006 02:15:10 AM |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2006 : 10:05:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hapagirl
Here are some of my questions:
1. When plucking, how far in between the strings do you put the plucking finger? Watching Keola, it almost looks like he only uses his fingernails. I am currently using my fingertip, about 1/8 to ¼ inch.
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We're so lucky to have the `ohana here at Taropatch.net to share all this info. What an encouraging and aloha filled group.  I'm clearly biased but proudly proclaim that this is one cool place!
It's tough to ask and explain some of these things in text. Hapagirl, I'd be happy to try to address some of your questions in person when I see you in New York. |
Andy |
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hapagirl
Aloha
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2006 : 03:39:44 AM
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Yes, definitely, lots of aloha here at taropatch-- mahalo again for the responses. I very very much appreciate all of them. Pua Kai, thanks for your input. I searched for "fingernail" and was so surprised that it has come up as a common topic of discussion. I thought it was just a problem I was having, but I'll know now to search for stuff here just in case! Reid, mahalo for your patient and clear explanations-- you answered my most pressing questions (pun alert!). And Mika'ele, you've increased my string knowledge about 500%-- thank you for your suggestions and the ouchie-face sympathy for my new callouses. Andy, I'll definitely take you up on the in-person guidance.
Now back to practicing and attempting not to melt in this heat wave...wishing coolness for all!
Aloha,
Jennifer |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2165 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2006 : 03:05:12 AM
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| As a window washer, I keep my nails very short (I've been accused of being a nailbiter). When I play bare-fingered, I use my fingertips, 'cause no mo' nail on da end, jus' callouses. A certain amount of suffering is requisite for the artist. No two people will play the same way, which is a relief. Like my Dad told me, "Play clean and smooth" or nahenahe. |
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Claudia
Lokahi
USA
152 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2006 : 07:24:42 AM
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| Aloha, Hapagirl. I live in New York City too and play slack key. I just noticed this thread. How are you doing now, with all the helpful hints everyone has been giving you? |
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ArtSap
Lokahi
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2006 : 6:20:19 PM
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| Jennifer, as with anything new it's always best to learn the basics first. Then through many hours of practice and trial & error, you'll become familiar with different techniques and then begin to realize which of them works for you. Just remember that what works for one person may not work for another. So you'll have to try them and see but try not to become frustrated because it will all pay off in the end. Just want to re-emphasize that this site is a terrific source of information with many willing to share their experiences with you... |
Art
SF Bay Area, CA / Mililani, HI
"The real music comes from within you - not from the instrument" |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2006 : 07:31:35 AM
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| Hapagirl--Most of your questions are general-guitar issues, and many of them resolve with experience--eventually your muscles and nervous system will "get it" and you won't even think about them. What I would suggest is that your make sure that your posture and general way of holding the guitar are comfortable and not stressful to any of your limbs and joints. The posture-and-technique advice given by classical teachers (endlessly repeated in instruction books and websites) is usually pretty good and is intended to prevent pain and injury while still allowing your hands to do fancy movements. (Though you can probably ignore some of the left-hand position stuff that's aimed at much more demanding material and not a folk tradition.) Matters of fingernail length and shape and the proportion of flesh-to-nail are things you will figure out as you decide how you want to sound and what's comfortable for you. In general, try things out, use what works, and don't fuss about what doesn't. |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2006 : 10:31:09 AM
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I have been reading a biography about Christopher Parkening, one of the world's greatest classical guitar players. He devotes several paragraphs to his fingernails (including an amusing tidbit about explaining to his drill sergeant at ROTC boot camp why he was filing his nails).
In any case, it is all about TONE. The tone desired and the tone produced. If you quietly sit one day and concentrate on just plucking one note with one specific finger and really listening to the tone produced by the guitar, then slightly move the angle of your finger and do it again -- to hear the subtle differences, you will begin to understand how wonderfully rich in sound this instrument can be. Then pluck with just the fingernail. Then "slice" pluck with the fingernail. Then pluck a rest stroke withe the fingernail. Then a free stroke with the fingernail. Then move your finger closer to the end of the fretboard. Then closer to the bridge. All of these will produce a subtly different sound. One that may be appropriate for a love song, another for a ballad, another for a lightening fast riff.
All this talk about fingernails is really about being able to add color, feeling, emotion, and a story line to the string of notes we play. Since we are all trying to create music we like to hear with the tools we are given, the task is to produce, then reproduce the song in our head. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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