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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
 Posted - 08/22/2006 : 11:33:35 AM
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I can only speak for this website even though we're not a tab site. I can definitively say that we do not have the resources to fight a legal battle so I will conveniently remind everyone of our FAQ: Can I share music and/or tabs here? Does Taropatch.net have a policy on copyrighted materials?
I would guess that most tab sites do not have the resources since they are not charging $ for tabs. Even if they're selling ads, it'd not likely cover any legal bills.
This post could potentially open up a can of worms but is a great topic nonetheless. Perpetuating the music - I'm all for. I just don't want tab exchange to be the focus of Taropatch.net so that we're at risk of being shut down. |
Andy |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2006 : 4:02:08 PM
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Interesting story:
quote:
amateur musicians trade “tabs” — music notation especially for guitar — for songs they have figured out or have copied from music books.
quote:
Google also dabbles in tablature through its Google Groups discussion board service, in which guitar players trade tabs they have figured out by listening to the songs, or by copying tabs found elsewhere.
And that pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?
'Fraid I can't see any difference with trading TABs and any other form of internet piracy. If it is your original work -- your TAB of your composition or of your original arrrangement of a PD piece, no problem. Otherwise, it's not your right -- pure and simple.
If I want to learn your arrangement, nothing prevents me from investing the time and effort to do that. But why should I have the right to distribute copies of TAB I made without your permission?
And why is this any different from publishing any other intellectual property? Is it because someone went to the effort to make a transcription?
Would you "transcribe" a first-run movie onto video and sell it? Would you transcribe an audio book you checked out of the library and post the transciption on the internet? Would you re-write a published knitting pattern so you could post it on your blog? You could use a video camera to capture some one's key strokes at an ATM -- would you then post your transcription of that "performance???"
People do all of these things, and they are clearly illegal.
Sorry to bum your trip, but I've looked at lots of these TAB sites, and frankly, many of them are trafficing in pirated material --including stuff stolen from me, BTW. I'm not sure that the entire world of guitar education would come to a halt if they got nailed.
We all want to learn slack key. Why not do it the way your hero's did? By listening.
Now we have more choices: Go to workshops. Take lessons. Go to jam sessions. Ask your buddies for help. Fool around with your guitar until it sounds like music.
You'll find you play better, you learn faster, and you can have the satisfaction of know that you are perpetuating traditional music.
So don't lament if you something happens and won't be able to grab oodles of free TAB anymore--- hell, would this even be an issue if the technology didn't make it EZ to distribute stuff?
I seem to remember that people somehow learned to play music before the 'net, before slow-down recorders, before copy machines... before writing, even.
Music lives. Keep it alive by playing from your heart.
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2006 : 6:58:56 PM
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As much as it is painful to do so, I have to agree with Mark. (Painful because I am guilty of having a few ''pirated'' TABS, and I passed on a few myself. But I don't make a general practice of it ... for the following reason ...
Every now and then I like something so much I want to play it as someone else did. For that I typically use a slow down recorder/sampler, and unfortunately, I don't get it quite right (but see the note below) However, that doesn't happen often because, well, if I want to hear Keola'a arrangement, I listen to his CD. He does it so much better than I do.
I'm much more interested in playing my own stuff (original songs and my arrangements of other people's songs.)-- it's the only thing I can do that no one else can do -- it is my contribution to "music". Sure it can be frustrating to work things out. Some songs I've had to approach 3 or 4 times with a few months in between. And no, none of my stuff is as good as Ozzie, Keola, Steve Sano, Led, george, etc etc. In fact, when I play stuff I arranged or wrote 2 or 3 years ago, I tend to get embarrassed by its poor quality. But, I guess that, too, could be a sign of growth. At any rate it IS mine.
And yes, I have learneed a lot especially from TABS I got from Ozzie, and some stuff I bought which was published - but really's Ozzie's stuff was my prime learning. But I got those from Ozzie and always offered him remuneration. TABS are good learning and there are legit resources for them which do not cost all that much. Limited? yes, but more than enough to learn.
NOTE: (referred to above,) I read a lengthy interview with Picasso in which he said it is ok for students to copy masterpieces. But exactly at that point where you make a "mistake" is where your own originality enters the picture. Interesting comment. |
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Pua Kai
Ha`aha`a
USA
1007 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2006 : 05:11:03 AM
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Whatever happened to the right to use and pay royalties for anything from which you profit? Is music copywrite that different from technology patents? If you want to perpetuate the music, you gotta let the lowlifes share it around with friends. It'll reach a larger audience, get more interest, and ultimately sell more CDs and seats. Not everyone is striving to perform or cut CDs. Nor is everyone here a musician. There, that ought to cause a real uproar.
n |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2006 : 07:16:52 AM
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Nancy,
a brief response to some of your points...
People who swap music are not necessarily lowlifes. I also think it is different to share something with a friend as opposed to posting it on the net where thousands, (ok given our smaller audience, maybe 24) peopple can get it. That is the point of royalties. People should get something for their work. The guys and gals who "made" it in the slack key world should have their choice if they want to give it away or make a reasonable amount of money from it. They're not going to get rich, but at least asking for permission is simply a form or respect.
Finally, anyone who plays an intrument or sings is a musician. If you want to play or sing better, it will simply take some hard work.
There's a great article in a recent Scientific American about learning from chess masters - all of them worked very hard - much harder than most players - that, plus some native talent is what made them masters. Same for guitarm ukulele or voice - most people have the basic motor coordination - it takes practice and pushing yourself to get better and better. |
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Pua Kai
Ha`aha`a
USA
1007 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2006 : 07:34:49 AM
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OK - sorta reacted to points of sharing - anonymous sharing via internet bad... sharing derived tabs good. Learn only by listening? Nice if you are able to do it. Go to workshops and camps? nice if you are able. Learn oodles?? whew! hard to just learn a few. Thanks for including even those of us who struggle with rhythm, and don't seem to be able to pick stuff up just by listening and watching for an hour or two as musicians. Thank you Ray.
And thank you Ozzie for letting us share among ourselves.
And thank you Leonard and others for posting Christmas music tab so we really could share.
n |
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slkho
`Olu`olu
740 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2006 : 07:36:41 AM
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Hmmm..., I seem to recall this being a thread many times before. I agree with many points of Mark, RJS, Andy, and PuaKai.
Well to be quite honest, music is very hard for me to learn. I'm simply not as talented as many of you, or my peers. I have to practice/play ALOT just to suck at this, but I do love slack key. I've taken the workshops, got CD's, tapes, videos, did the "watch-look-listen-play crap, etc... and it is still hard for me. Simple as that, not everyone learns the same way.
Tab for me is a great way to learn slck key music. I certainly don't get it and sell it to someone or else. I get it to learn a song I like. I'm never going to write my own music - I don't want to. I hear a song I like, and I try to learn it because I will get greater enjoyment of the song by playing it.
Copyright, pirating, blah-blah-blah, I am NOT taking food, or money away from an artist by getting their tab on a song....I am certainly not profiting of it, unless you consider getting a free meal as payment.
If I can get the tab, then I will. If some artist asks me for a royality payment...fine, I'll give him a couple of bucks. For a culture that keeps spitting out perpetuate the music, the spirit of Aloha, yaddi-yaddi-yaddi, I always find this a prickly subject.
Move on, play on.
~slkho |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2006 : 3:26:28 PM
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The difference I see in this thread is that it directly addresses sites with lots of TAB and from which anyone can "anonymously" download. That is very different from friends sharing TAB.
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Hilinai
Akahai
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 03:58:37 AM
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Aloha,
Tough to use this greeting in this discussion, but its the way I start all my correspondence on this site. From this thread, I'm not sure if you all understand the word the feeling or the culture.
Sorry to throw another turd in this one but here goes.
I don't know where all you people are from or what you play and btw I don't use tab and I don't even play slack key, I'm just a hawaiian from hawaii (the Papakolea homestead) that learned long ago that the music should be played and shared anyway possible. fyi, I'm a ukulele hack and I love to play and sing with my friends when possible and no I don't even get close to making any money on this and so I do get words and chords from friends and sites etc...... so is that a crime - I hope not.
When I was young on the homestead the old folks would encourage us to learn to play, share and have fun with the music, it was not about money - ever!. So where I'm from and what I learned - this is all bs. I think that as long as the person using the music is not profitting from it then it should not be a problem. Obviously if they are going to make money then they should share. I.e. If the site is advertising or selling music then they should pay, if not to bad.
Ok, so people, I realize that this is a complicated world and we all have to make a living, but really, we are all here for just a very short time, and the music is like the land, it will and must go on forever, so in the long run sharing is good, without sharing it will die. We must not and can not apply the typical American short term view of money and profit to such an important subject as this, and that is - if you don't get it - is the perpetuation of our culture and our music.
And so you say that it is your music cause you wrote it and you should be able to make money from it and that's fine - I understand that. But, then I say its hawaiian music, and if you chose to use that style of music then I think you owe it to the hawaiian culture to share it with people who don't plan to profit from using it. If you don't want to share it then you don't understand and you should not be writting or playing music using the Hawaiian style. FYI, our Kupuna developed this style of music for fun and to share - nothing more - I am sure of this cause I was there and if you really think about it, I think that you would agree.
So pls lets just share the music.
Aloha,
Hili. |
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Hilinai
Akahai
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 04:42:59 AM
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Aloha,
a couple more points.
1) The crack about low lifes sharing music. FYI, Hawaiian music is about sharing - thats how it was and thats how it should continue to be. So do you think in the old days when an elder passed/shared a chant or a song with a yougster that they were low lifes?
2) The comment about playing from the heart and learning from our "heros", also, I hope includes sharing from the heart? Who cares how the music is learned - and btw we all don't learn the same way and if TAB (again I don't use it) increases the number of people that can play and enjoy, which in turn grows our culture and the undstanding of our music etc....., then why not use it. Its like saying we should all continue to use snail mail and not email cause that's how our "heros" used to do it - its a ridiculous argument.
Aloha,
Hili |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 06:14:41 AM
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Aloha kakou-
quote:
The comment about playing from the heart and learning from our "heros", also, I hope includes sharing from the heart?
Absolutely, my friend. The issue is not about sharing and learning music, the issue is about people profiting from websites that post TAB that was created by someone else.
How do the sites profit? By selling ads. The internet is all about ad revenues these days.
My comments - admitttingly written after a difficult day and a helllaciously long drive -- are about the belief that, because it is easy to post music, videos, TAB, etc on the 'net, it should be OK.
I think sharing music is great. I think stealing recorded music or TAB is not great.
I've heard the argument that all the "free" MP3 and TAB downloads are good exposure so more people buy the music. The problem is, it is not true. Sales of recorded music are down. Sales of music books are down. I can attest to this from personal experience.
My intention is not to slag someone who needs TAB to learn. TAB is useful -- I write it, remember? Nor am I saying you shouldn't share your knowledge -- and, yes, even pass around some TAB among your freinds so you can all play the same songs together. I passionately believe music only lives when we play it. Playing music together is the highest form of communication, in my mind anyway.
I was -- and am -- responding to the mass, illegal distribution of copyrighted material for profit (via ad revenues) on the big TAB sites. Where I come from, that's no different from bootlegging DVDs in China, or stealing MP3s via the old Napster, or "borrowing" somebody's credit card info.
Hili, I'll take your advice and amend it to playing and sharing from the heart.
That's the whole point, isn't it? |
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Pua Kai
Ha`aha`a
USA
1007 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 06:23:35 AM
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My use of "low-lifes" was used the opposite - not calling anyone one - just that I am in the masses of what someone might think people behaving badly. But sort of pros vs the rest of us. Sorry Hili... not intended bad.....
When I learned to play the guitar in high school a friend and I took a class at UCLA extension at night with Bess Hawes (Willie Lomax's niece). There were lots of us around high school who brought guitars to school and learned from each other. The music was folk music and old cowboy music. So we were in standard tuning, knew the chords in most keys, played to accompany our singing. On to college - played while others sang... on to skiing - by then, the younger folks didn't know the songs so I quit playing. Along in there, I went to Lana'i City where everyone worked for Dole. At night around the fire, out came the guitars and out came all the most beautiful what I labeled as "Hawaiian folk songs" and decided to learn someday. It would have been so much easier if I had't waited 30yrs to tackle it. To this day I don't know whether I heard slack key then or beautiful music played in standard tuning. In so many places, the chords are written above the words for both ukulele and guitar. Those don't work for slack key.. so along comes tab. Nice learning tool - - - especially when there isn't a group sitting around a back porch or a campus waterfall, or a campfire. And it lends itself to solo playing without singing way better than strumming chords, even with runs and other interesting stuff thrown in. And further note - does anyone know of ANY books published with the tab and words simultaneous? ANY?? So I'm still in initial stages of struggling trying to learn to have fun with it.
There.....
Sorry about using bad words; sorry to hurt anyone's feelings; sorry if I stole something I didn't know and thought was sharing. And I know I'm not going to profit from it.
And again thanks to everyone who has helped me along the way, starting with Keith and Rik, Patrick's Institute of Hawaiian music; John Keawe, George Kahumoku, Keoki Kahumoku's workshops/classes; and on to Keola's AMC and George's Camp Kahumoku, Unlce Chuck Ka'imikaua's classes; and especially the Southern California Slack Key Society (SCSKS) founded by Don Narup. There are a lot of wonderful folks along this rocky path of mine, and so much aloha to smooth it all out.
Mahalo nui loa,
auntie nancy
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 06:33:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hilinai
So pls lets just share the music.
Glad everyone is sharing their opinions. And Hilinai, thanks for saying 'aloha' and putting your thoughts and perspectives out here.
I hope people understand where I am coming from. I believe Taropatch.net is a cool place and part of my job is to make sure that it exists as a place on the internet. As a precaution, I have a firm policy to make sure that this site does not become a tablature/music trading site. Copyrights must be enforced. Otherwise, the risk of being shut down is too great. If you don't believe it, read the linked articles. As the person running this site, my perspective is different from others.
My personal beliefs aside, our policy must be enforced for the self-preservation of this website. It is not a statement against sharing but a consequence due to lack of time and resources on my part to argue the case within our legal system.
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to discuss the subject here. But if I had to hire an attorney to discuss the subject with other attorneys... we would be no more.  |
Andy |
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slkho
`Olu`olu
740 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 07:03:01 AM
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Once again, very good points from all. Hili I see your point of view, where your coming from regarding music, I agree with all of it. As to Aloha, I do understand the word the feeling, and culture. Trust me on that.
Thank you PuaKai, and Mark for your clarifications as well. It is a slippery subject to be sure. One thing for sure is that both points of the issue are "correct".
If it wasn't for a forum such as this, to be debated as such, we'd all be in the dark with a narrow point of view. Good to know we can agree to disagree.
Andy's position is unique. On one hand, to provide this forum and have a network and learn, (who hasn't been a better player since coming on?). And keeping within the legal parameters of having this site operate. I for one am very grateful to Andy, (thank you).
Hope I didn't offend anyone, I just want to learn. I wouldn't want to have this site shut down by "breaking any rules"
~slkho
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chunky monkey
Ha`aha`a
USA
1019 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 09:52:34 AM
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| In support of Mark's last post - I've asked him for Tab to learn a song and he has graciously complied; no questions asked. Thanks Mark. I play his songs and go out of my way to mention that he helped me learn it. My experience is that if you ask the authors for available tab, they usually send it. Three simple rules for the TP: (1) respect; (2) ask; and (3) don't abuse the privilege. |
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