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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
 Posted - 08/24/2006 : 1:06:13 PM
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Hili,
You have some very good points. For the record, I do believe in sharing the music. I have posted on the site recording of some of my songs, and offered to send the TAB to people who contacted me. I share my arrangements with friends and students. And I play regularly in public. I give away performances as donations to charitable groups and I donate my time at nursing homes. I started and fostered the first 9 months of the South Bay Hawaiian Open Mic. That in addition to a regular restaurant gig. The money I make on that stuff doesn't even keep my in cd's.
That said, my personal belief is that "sharing" and "mass distribution" are not synonymous. Sitting around with a couple of friends and swapping songs is a very different thing than posting them on a site where anyone with access to a computer could take it. (Hell, even in the slacvk key community, one of the Hawaiian based "teachers" stole Ozzie Kotani's material and put his own name on it.) And it is not just about money. Composers have "rights" to their songs. Respecting those "rights" is honoring the composer. In my opinion, the kupuna who wrote some of the most beautiful music in the world got screwed by musicians and business people just assuming it was ok to use their stuff whenever. And, in my opinion, that amounts to disrespect. Before any composer's work is posted for mass distribution, that person should be asked and have the right to say yes or no. (If a song was written as a gift to someone, that person should be contacted also.)
On top of that, as much as we would like to, most of us do not live in a world that respects deep "aloha." Sometimes it is necessary to protect things from abuse by setting limits.
To bring this post to an end, on the one hand sites need to protect themselves legally. On the other hand, (and I'm not accusing you, Hili, of disrespect...) "sharing" needs to be balanced with "respect." |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 1:16:00 PM
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I want to add something, but thought it would go best to do so in a separate post. Earlier this week I found out that a great little music shop is going out of business. It was a place where I could drop in and buy a piece of sheet music or a book, and they were well stocked. In speaking with the owner, amoung other things he said that in the last two years his sales of classical guitar sheet music has almost dried up. Why? Probably because you can go to the internet and download a huge zip file of most of the clasical pieces you would want to play, for free. This, however, has riple effects in the community, 'cause not only could you drop in there for sheet music, but it was also a place to run into people, hear about events and find musicians to play for fun and on gigs. One innocuous site just sharing music, and a family looses its business -- the effects in just one community.
Our society is reeking with narcissism, and its view that I'm entitled to everything, and , unltimately, that I do not have to pay for it. That's just pathological.
And that is very different from what people tell my about the old days when ohana shared music. That sharing was imbued in a web of mutual obligations to individuals and the family as a whole. Not just cliking the mouse 3 times.
Sorry for the soap box, but this stuff gets close to things a feel very strongly about. |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 1:33:52 PM
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quote:
My experience is that if you ask the authors for available tab, they usually send it.
Chunky I can't agree with you more!!!!
There is so much ALOHA on this web site. I have been able to chat/converse with the kumu(s) (source(s)) of this wonderful art form. When I have asked them for help learning a song they wrote -- they have graciously lent their help, assets, and expertise. When people have asked me, I usually have referred them to the author and they have received the same help and aloha. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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Hilinai
Akahai
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 10:54:28 PM
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Aloha,
Sorry for causing such a uproar. I really did not mean to be so offensive - email has a tendency to come off harsher then anticipated.
I certainly understand the fact that we all need to make a living and I totally agree that a website that is profiting off of others hard work should share and pay the artist.
Admin - have you ever thought of selling tab or music written by the artist on this site with their permission and to benefit them financially. I think that a lot of people including myself would pay say 5 dollars per song and in addition would be more than happy to support our musicians in this way. Doing this would allow people like me to get the music easily as written be the original artist and legally and support our musicians too. I think it would be a win-win situation. Pls consider it.
Aloha,
Hili
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 04:55:17 AM
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Aloha -
Hili, you are absolutely right: for some reason e-mail and written posts often appear harsh. Frankly I'm stumped by that. People have used written communication for quite a while now; you'd think maybe we would have become used to it by now. 
Hence the ubiquitous smiley.
quote:
Admin - have you ever thought of selling tab or music written by the artist on this site with their permission and to benefit them financially.
That is an excellent sugggstion!
Andy -- if you want to take on yet more work, I'm in. I've got this new book I never seem to be able to finish...
The logistics would be tough, but workable. In fact, I'd bet there's someone in the 'patch with the time and dedication to volunteer
cheers,
Mark
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 06:04:24 AM
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Please, Hili and Mark, give Andy a break. Andy has an important and demanding day job and a lovely wife, a swell family, and good friends and a guitar he would like to spend some time with. TP is a labor of love and a cost center for him. What you are suggesting is no less than a shopping site, and you know how hard, and expensive, that is to acquire, set up, and maintain.
There are plenty of tabs for sale already by you, Mark, Keola, Ron Loo, Ozzie, Led, and older collections you can still find from Leonard and Uncle Ray and Barry, and bunches of other people. Sarah and I have bought them all and I gotta tell you, even for Sarah, who can play 4 or 5 hours straight without a repeat, the majority have still yet to be learned.
Hili, if you haven't figured out that this site has plenty of sources, please look around. Especially, look at:
http://www.taropatch.net/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2
(I don't know if Ron Loo's new site has been added, but I'll look.)
Sure, there will always be some new or old song that has not been tabbed and that you might have an itch for, but there is so much variety out there for sale, that you could, maybe just a little, constrain yourselves from scratching that itch?
Now, if Andy wants to be masochistic and fill the tiny gaps in the tab universe for you, God bless him. But, I will reserve the nearest rubber room for him. And it will probably be in the poor house.
...Reid |
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bunmomm
Aloha
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 10:00:12 AM
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What an excellent discussion. Being the raw beginner that I am, I search the 'net' for tab for kiho`alu that I love listening to and hope to one day be able to play myself. I agree with everyone here that this is a sticky issue and that composers should receive their cut of the action for their work but us "amatuers", who have no care to compose or record, but just play from the heart and enjoy and spread our happiness with the sound of slack key, need somewhere to be able to get tab (if it is not available here at taropatch or in a purchaseable book). I wouldn't even know how to go about contacting some of the artists for permission to print their music or music that their kumu wrote!
Oh, and mahalo Mark for your patience as my instructor -- my learning seems to be as nahe nahe as my playing!!! |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 7:19:12 PM
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Hili,
Just to make sure air is clear.
I did not take any offense by your comments. I thought what you wrote was perfectly ok. I disagree with some of it and I don't think the issue is a simple one, so I replied. I also wrote a bit about my experience not to justify myself or because I felt I was somehow being attacked, just to say that I do share the music and give some examples of how I do so. And I didn't mean to personally attack anyone with my comments. |
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Hilinai
Akahai
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 01:54:50 AM
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Aloha,
No offense taken. Thanks for that though, its nice to discuss and try to understand each others views. It is for sure a sticky subject.
And btw, my suggestion for this site to sell tab and musice could be as simple as posting a list of original artist contacts who are doing it. For me, I am not a webie and I don't and can't spend hours on the web looking for music so I rely on my friends who are better at it then me and have the time to do it.
If this site had a list of artist contacts for tab, music, books, dvds (pls some ukulele stuff too?) - whatever, then it would make it easier for people like me to do the right way, and believe me when I say I would love to support our artists, I just don't have hours to figure it out.
On a lighter note - I'm planning a luau at my place the 17th of September, thats in Seattle. A few of my kanikapila buds are coming by to play and mostly eat and drink (actually truth be known we mostly play), if you are in the area pls let me know.
Also, in Seattle we meet once and sometimes twice a month to play, if you are ever in the area drop me a line and we will set you up.
Aloha!
Hili
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 02:59:26 AM
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"And btw, my suggestion for this site to sell tab and musice could be as simple as posting a list of original artist contacts who are doing it. For me, I am not a webie and I don't and can't spend hours on the web looking for music so I rely on my friends who are better at it then me and have the time to do it."
This site *does* do that! Haven't you looked? Don't you know what the various forums on this site contain? Click on the things and read them. Don't you know what that "Search" link is on the top of the page? Or do you simply want to complain and be spoonfed?
But, the entries are NOT for individual artist contact. No artist will give a personal contact address out to the general public. Would you? Except for Ozzie, who is a gem, and, now, his personal contact info is closely held and only given out to serious inquiries.
Keola has a web site, Mark has a website, Mark Hanson has a website. Ron Loo has a website. There are many more, including Dominator's `ukulele website, and they are listed and reviewed here.
"If this site had a list of artist contacts for tab, music, books, dvds (pls some ukulele stuff too?) - whatever, then it would make it easier for people like me to do the right way, and believe me when I say I would love to support our artists, I just don't have hours to figure it out."
It DOES! Get off your butt and SEARCH.
...Reid |
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Kiwini
Lokahi
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 07:23:58 AM
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| Wow Reid...........now that's the Aloha spririt!!!! |
Me Ke Aloha,
Steve |
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Hilinai
Akahai
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 12:47:07 PM
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Aloha,
Pretty rough stuff. I didn't think I was complaining, but perhaps you felt I was - a suggestion is far from complaining, I think. Thanks for the kind suggestion, you must be a really nice guy!
btw as I said before I do not and cannot spend hours on line - my life and my work do not allow it and besides I hate wasting time on the web I would rather use my extra time with my family, my friends etc.... maybe I am lazy as you suggest.
However I know that some people love to play on the Web - I'm just not one of them, is all. Also, I'm really new at this, believe it or not, there are still people out there who don't web and don't know how to either. I'm kind of in between, however, at this point, I still will not be spending hours on this thing, I don't enjoy it. And perhaps it is as easy as you say - I haven't tried a whole lot, so I really don't know, but again, thanks for the kind suggestion.
Aloha,
Hili
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Hilinai
Akahai
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 2:02:21 PM
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Aloha,
I've taken your advice and spent a hour or so looking at this web site and you are correct, there are a lot of resources here and actually set up as I suggested in some cases. I apologize for being so ignorant. I do plan to buy a bunch of this stuff.
Mahalo and Aloha,
Hili.
Ps - Mahalo Andy for a great site and resource. |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 4:05:56 PM
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Don't know why but copyright stuff always seems to get heated. Sorry that this happens... but it's still all worth discussion. The good, bad and the ugly.
I kind of feel that Taropatch.net is long overdue for a makeover. Unfortunately, who knows when that will actually happen?
Just a couple quick links which may help. - Learning page - I tried to list all the books and videos available (probably needs updating)
- cpatch's list - Craig has listed songs, tunings and available books/videos
So let's all remember why we are here. The islands and the music. It's all good. We're on the same team. |
Andy |
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Hilinai
Akahai
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 02:59:34 AM
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Aloha,
thanks Andy, I don't think it needs update or maybe cause its all new to me, I think its great as is.
Mahalo,
Hili. |
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