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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
 Posted - 09/04/2006 : 09:40:36 AM
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In the fist 6 months learning Ki ho'alu, I learned at a fairly rapid pace. I learned seven medium to easy songs rapidly. Now, I find it difficult to finish my new songs to memory. I have worked on Papa's Okolehau, E ku'u morning dew, and Hanson's Aloha o'e for over two months now(forever compared to the first 7). And I still have a vese left on Aloha O'e. The other two are memorized but not clean enough to be considerd finished. Well, ok, I also added Classical Gas and I am dabbling in bottle neck to improve my "violin" style vibrato, but I work on those first three slack key songs every day of the week. Morning, noon, and evening. Playing guitar is obviously my passion 
I thought songs would get easier to lean as I gained experience. Has anyone else experience this kind of slow down? I am trying to build a repertorie so I can play out but maybe I am getting over-loaded.
Any Comments?
Bob
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 11:58:20 AM
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Aloha e Bob,
I've experienced that sort of thing. I don't know the scientific reason. I'll bet there are a number of factors involved, such as real time practicing, true focus when practicing, number of new songs in the hopper, and some songs just stick faster than others.
By your arithmetic, you initally learned 7 songs in 6 months, approximately 1 month per song. Now you worry that you aren't learning 3 songs in two months, while also focusing on bottleneck and vibrato :-)
One thing you didn't mention is whether, when you learned those initial 7 songs, you worked on them serially or all at once. That might clue you in as to whether you are a good batch learner or work better song by song. I find I have to stick with one song for a while before starting another, to let it sink in. If I work on too many new things (how many is too many surely varies person to person), then my progress slows. Same thing happens if I try to memorize too large a chunk at once. Seems I get scattered or overwhelmed, and hardly any of it sticks, or out of order, which equals confusion. I always break my memory work into pieces, and get one part down pretty firmly before I move on. And I still wind up needing review of the parts I thought I had.
For a year or more, I was stuck with the same number of songs in my repertoire. I felt I might never learn more without losing the ones I had! And it did take a lot of time to keep reviewing those I knew. However, eventually I got beyond that, probably having finally given my repertoire enough time to truly gel, and went on to learn new songs.
It often is easier to learn new songs the more experience you have, because some fragments may be similar enough to stuff you already know that they are easier to remember, or there may be a familiar pattern. However, it really depends on the song -- some use fingering or chords you just never really worked through before. This can definitely happen when you move to a different composer/arranger, because the "style" changes. A new piece might have new chord shapes, new tricky rhythm, trick fingering, or one really difficult measure.
There are also tricks to memorizing, which you may or may not be using already. For example, work on memorizing for only 10 min at a time, and inbetween, get up and walk around and rest your brain, and then come back to it. Also, start at the end of the piece and work small chunk by chunk back to the beginning. That way, you wind up repeating the end many more times than you would otherwise, and you get ever more familiar with "where you are going" and can finish the piece with more confidence.
aloha,
Sarah |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 7:23:41 PM
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Sarah
I too, learn each song in sections. I memorize a section and practice until I can play it. I make small changes to suit my ears, and then move on to more sections until I am done.
I learned my first songs serially, and some two at a time. The difference is that I memorized those songs quickly and spent the extra time practicing them well enough to record with minor flaws. That is my test... my way of deciding if I really have the song memorized. From there, I tinker, fix problem areas, and try to add my own emotional (dynamic) flavor. I am not there yet on two of those three new songs.
Right now I am mostly working with C Wahine tuning on steel string but I am a classical guitar player at heart, so there is one difference.
I can also see other reasons things are going slower. Two of the song runs 4 sheets or more and each verse has voicing changes that makes them different and making more to remember. I just need to slow down a bit and realize that the songs have more content.
BTW. It may seem strange, but I am using a Brozman bottleneck DVD to help develop a violin style vibrato. He even starts off teaching in G major (Taro Patch, of course). Brozman makes vibrato a central issue in his DVD and it gives me very good feeback on coordination and speed. I think when I transfer the motion to my finger tips I will have good vibrato.
Thanks for your comments.
Bob |
Bob |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 8:16:26 PM
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Bob,
I've written on this in other links, and I'll try to keep concise and brief. In fact, my ideas about this haven't really changed over the years.
Why worry about memorizing songs? That's not the mark of how well you know a song. Can you play it with feeling? Can you create an experience for your listener which opens them to the beauty in the song? That stuff is much more important.
When I play at the restaurant, no one cares if I'm using notation. Luaus, parties, corporate functions - nobody cares. I don't think it made much of a difference at open mic, either. When I play for friends, they could care less if I'm using notes. But all these people do care when the music touches them. And I guess they would care if I start playing a lot of "wrong" notes without having some way to cover them up - like using them as a jumping point for an improv.
OK, when I played at the Aloha Festival, or did a recital for the local Guitar Society - then I did memorize because people have come to expect that at those kinds of performances. (But I went to Rubenstein recitals where he used music, and nobody bat an eyelash.)
As to those tiny variations - 2 points. First of all, slack key is one of those forms where repetitions are done with relatively minor changes between reps. It's just part of the turf. Now the important point - why care if you nail anyone's 6 variations note for note? This isn't a living history music - its an alive art form. Make up your own variations. Use someone else's as a jumping off point.
I want to include the following anecdote in regards to the last point. I took lessons from George Kahumoku for about a year, almost every week. After a few months George asked me to transcribe a few songs into TAB for a workshop he was giving. I audio taped him, took notes while we worked together and worked my butt off to get it right. Next week I played them for him and he said I blew it, etc etc. Same thing happened the following week. The third time, however, I had a video recorder with me. We worked on the songs together, I taped him and did a set of near perfect transcripts. Next week I played them for him and he starts telling me how I got them wrong. So I played the video tape - in fact I nailed it. George's answer was, "That's how I used to play them, but not how I play them today."
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Edited by - RJS on 09/04/2006 8:25:06 PM |
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 03:07:51 AM
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Aloha e Bob,
4 pages and C wahine tuning would make a big difference to me. I forgot to mention a different tuning as another aspect that can require more time. You have to "relearn" the fretboard.
Raymond makes good points. The variations are variations, and the pieces are flexible, as his example with George illustrates. You can make your own, and are "supposed" to, as it were, although in my learning process that usually comes after I have really internalized the piece, i.e., after I've memorized it.
Personally, I can play a memorized piece with much more expression than I can a piece I need to follow from a page. I think it has to do with where my focus can be. So I really do try to "get off the page" and then develop the piece.
However, if you have classical training, well, as Raymond points out, world class musicians have played with sheet music for ages very successfully. Recently, I was at a summer music concert and the two blues guitar players were sitting down, with music (or lyrics) on a music stand in front of each!
aloha,
Sarah
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 05:45:30 AM
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First of all, let me express my gratitude to the founder and the members of Taropatch. Since I do not have any Slack key players in my area, I am learning this art form from books and using the generous members here as my mentors.
Sarah: I too memorize first and then make changes later. But I want to clear one thing up in case I mislead by saying I am a classical player at heart. I never sight read and I am not a true musician even though I can play Villa-lobos, Satie, and Tarrega. I can read only very slowly and that is good enough for learning. Sheet music only gets used during my learning stage and in Ki ho'alu I only use tab and sometimes my ear.
RJS: I am still working on some of your earlier comments. One of your suggestions was that I use vibrato. I listen to good advise and I am working on it. Your new comment here, has re-inforced a concise piece of advise from BWOP from within another post. I don't know BWOP and I hope he doesn't mind my quoting him.
quote:
"Tab" is great... BUT, don't you know, it' got banned along with "Fresca". I would suggest to use it as a guide or reference point, but also learn by ear! Learn a song, and then improvise on it. Adapt some old favorite song into ki ho'alu. Learn to modulate between keys in a song, play melody and back-up and harmony. All that will really take you somewhere!
I just have so many other things to improve first but I think the point Raymond made says the same thing. I should learn to use a tuning well enough to improvise in it.
Improvising is my long term goal.
My Aloha to Sarah
and Raymond
Bob |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 09:43:22 AM
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Something else to consider.
Good mechanics is important too. It takes time and practice to get your fingers to do new things. You can learn to do them the "easy" way some times, which, in practice, turn out to be the hard way because your mechanics are poor. There are lots of books that stress proper positioning, mechanics, and technique. I find, I need to keep practicing the fundamentals and keep my fingers in shape with guitar finger exercises before I can play well. This is where having a good instructor can come in --to point out your bad habits and help you devise ways to correct them. This is not as fun as trying to play the song but may actually produce more long term, lasting, and effective results in the quality of your playing than repeating the song over and over. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 10:27:03 AM
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Yeak, I agree to Mika'ele's points. I good instructor for a lesson or two can help with mechanics even if he/she doesn't play slack key.
Bob - the main point I was trying to make was that whether or not you memorize the song is not nearly as important as playing with intelligence and feeling. Musical values far outweigh memorization skills. Sarah, I get what you're saying, and I have friends who are like that. I guess I learned by playing in polka bands - not a lot of practice, so you got used to using a lead sheet to keep you on track. In fact, when I mostly use a lead sheet or slightly elaborated one rather than writing out every note. |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 05:53:31 AM
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To those that responded...
After working on other songs for a while, I realized that I was only having trouble learning one song--Hanson's Aloha O'e. For some reason it was difficult to put to memory. I guess I should expect that to happen from time-to-time.
Thanks for the input.
Bob |
Bob |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 08:17:08 AM
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I've found that no 2 people learn the same way. Also, I've experienced "hitting the wall". In talking with others and comparing notes, "hitting the wall" means that you are about to make the jump to the next level. Most don't realize this and usually give up just as they're about to graduate to the next level of proficiency. No 'come discourage'.
As far as polka bands go, the one I'm in doesn't even have charts. At least it's made me a better listener! |
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 08:17:24 AM
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Bob,
Yup. Sometimes I wind up putting aside a song because of that, and come back to it in 6 months or a year. That usually helps, because I've made progress in other ways in the interim, and can approach the song with new skills or experience.
aloha,
Sarah |
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