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FROPPE
Akahai
USA
81 Posts |
 Posted - 12/03/2006 : 4:38:05 PM
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Aloha, Everyone!
I'm interested in setting up a very small "home studio", and would appreciate anyone's input and/or experiences.
What I want to accomplish is to find a self-contained recording system that I can use to build arrangements on a track-by-track basis. I'll be doing all of the playing and recording myself, primarily on guitar, bass, keyboard, ukulele, flute and percussion. At some point, some vocals may be added. Also, I would like to find something that has a versatile rhythm machine included.
I would rather have something that is not computer-based. With my limited computer skills, I would spend all of my time trying to load software, figure out programs,shop for upgrades, etc. Some kind of self-contained, stand-alone system is what I am looking for, and the simpler, the better.
Ultimately, I would like to be able to build and record arrangements that could be used in a "Music Minus One" type format. This would be a big help to me in my practicing and composing. Big studio quality and selling CDs are not what I am after, but I would like to be able to burn a CD of my "creations".
Without knowing what is available, I figure that my budget is somewhere between $600 and $1,000. Am I completely out of my mind, or is something like this out there?
Many thanks to anyone who cares to respond.
Mahalo,
Ben Sterling 
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2006 : 7:58:28 PM
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There are a lot of standalone recorders in that price range, from 4-24 tracks. But you have to fit 1-3 good microphones in your budget, plus good headphones and/or monitors, too, so that brings the hardware price range down a bit. You can spend more on mics than you need, but make sure you spend enough to make your instruments sound good.
Getting the sound out of the recorder and onto a CD means having a CD inside the recorder, cabling the recorder to a computer or having removeable media that you can place into a computer for burning later. Are you going to want to export your recordings in a format that can be taken to another studio at full resolution for mixing or other enhancement? You'll want to make sure the files you need can be exported.
The machines in that price range are made by Boss, Korg, Zoom, Alesis and others. A place to start is the Musicians Friend product review page at http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?doc_id=88884&g=home
A simple recorder like the Fostex MR-8HD CD at around $550 would probably be fine and have more capabilities than you need.
As you get more serious about recording, you'll start to question the quality of mic preamps, the quality of the built-in effects and the versatility of a stand alone machine, but with several hundred bucks to spend, you can get a setup that will last you quite a while.
Jesse Tinsley |
Edited by - hapakid on 12/03/2006 7:59:26 PM |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 07:39:05 AM
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I am particularly fond of the Korg audio workstations.
I nearly bought a D3200 last year for about $1200.
(of course it is a little more than your stated price range)
They seem to have more "bang for the buck" than Roland these
days. It is almost always better to "buy more than you need"
so that you can handle a bigger situation when you need to.
The only negative(s) for me with this unit were the inability
to output analog sub-mixes (intermediate mix buss outputs)and
the small relatively low-contrast screen.
All of the other units in this range did not seem to be able
to output sub-mixes either, but I have high expectations. If
the unit could have done this I would have been able to use
it as an FOH (Front of House) live mixer and a multi-channel
recorder at the same time. It would have been sweet to be able
to dispense with a separate house mixer and reduce the needed
gear greatly.
You may think that 4 simultaneous input channels are enough, but
if you get a couple of your friends together and stereo-mike the
guitars (recommended), including yourself then you have already used
up six channels. Add the three vocals of you and your friends and
you are up to nine channels. You may want to do this kind of thing
much sooner than you think.
In any case, make sure you read lots of reviews first before buying
and also that you download and read the manual. (If you cannot
download the users manual from the manufacturer then DO NOT make
the purchase.) These things are complicated devices and you can get
stuck with something that you may not like at all. I read completely
through the Korg D3200 manual TWICE and then spent 6 hours (on two
visits) to Guitar Center playing with it before making my decision.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 12/04/2006 10:38:59 AM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 11:44:03 AM
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quote:
The only negative(s) for me with this unit were the inability
to output analog sub-mixes (intermediate mix buss outputs)and
the small relatively low-contrast screen.
If the unit could have done this I would have been able to use
it as an FOH (Front of House) live mixer and a multi-channel
recorder at the same time.
Lawrence - Check out the Korg D888. That's exactly the niche it's designed for -- it'll record 8 tracks at 16/44.1 and pass through all 8 tracks as direct outs to your FOH mixer. Even better, it'll work as a servicable mixer, complete w/ monitor sends and a basic FX engine. I'm reviewing one now.
The D888 is inexpensive & extremely easy to use, but won't do what you want, Ben.
I agree with Jesse -- since you want a rhythm machine, spend some time looking at the units from Fostex, Boss, Tascam, Zoom, etc. You'll need one with an internal CD burner if you don't want to use a computer.
And plan on spending real money to get at least 2 decent mics!
Cheers,
Mark |
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chunky monkey
Ha`aha`a
USA
1021 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 1:47:33 PM
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| What are the "decent mic" candidates with approx $. I'm also looking at assembling a basic recording setup, although I'll be using a computer to mix. |
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chunky monkey
Ha`aha`a
USA
1021 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 1:49:21 PM
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Mark or Lawrence,
If I sent you a direct email would/could you make recommendations if I give you my budget and specs? I don't want to confuse this post with my intentions. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 3:17:35 PM
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Chunk, Oh Man... Decent mics. Yes, *decent*. You know what I have and they are the Poor Man's AAAXXX, as our helpful experts have said. I don't know or care what your intentions are, but your least budget will be close to $300 each; even the Shanghai innards mics with the funny similar 3 alphabet names list for that. Now I am waiting for Mark, Big Dog and Lawrence to pounce.
Flame away!
...Reid |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2006 : 05:04:40 AM
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I don't kow a lot about recording but I can recommend what I use.
It might not make a seriously technical person happy but it sounds good to me.
I have a Tascam DP-01/fx that came with an MXL condenser mic. Both are inexpensive and do a pretty good job. Musicainsfriend has the cd version bundled with an MXL mic for $600. I think that is a good price and you can probably get away with one mic...I do. If you would like to hear a few songs recorded with the Tascam/MXL equipement, go to my profile and use the link to my Myspace profile.
Bob |
Bob |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2006 : 05:23:44 AM
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I have to back up a little and include more info.
The Tascam unit does not have a rythm machine but I think it is a good idea to buy that separate anyway.
Now for the important part that I forgot.
All of my recordings were tranfered to a computer and edited to adjust EQ and add compression. Then, I converted to from wav to mp3. I wonder if most members do the same--probably so. I am not sure if the other suggested recorders have onboard compression but I find it to be a necessary process.
Short story is that I do go to a computer to finish the recording.
Bob |
Bob |
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2006 : 08:17:46 AM
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I have not used any of these cheaper Asian and Russian made (recently branded) recording microphones, however I have heard a lot of bad things about them, mostly that the response varies greatly from one unit to the next. This means you will never know what you are going to get upon purchase. However, the competition from these cheapie brands has forced some of the older makers to scramble to come out with something to compete.
Even the Neumann TLM103 (at $900) is an example of this competitive pressure. AKG have also lowered the price on their flagship 414 while improving the specs.
So Dave's suggestion may be a good one, as AKG has been one of the established companies with a wide range of price points and their newer line of lower-mid-level mics (like the ones Dave mentions above) are likely to be very good for the money.
There are several Recording Websites that discuss Mics at length and some of them have lists of preferred Mics in various price ranges. These lists are likely to be about a year or two behind the new product releases as the folks have to use the mics for a while to really get a good idea (if the lists are any good that is). I will post some links here shortly.
Also. I think there have been some mic discussions here already, so you should also search Taropatch for mic, microphone, etc.
Here are some links to get you started. Remember Einstein's last proof was Time=Money, so if you are expecting to save much money then you must put in a lot of time (aka research)!
http://www.discmakers.com/music/pse/2006/outfitting.asp
http://members.aol.com/mihartkopf/
http://www.homerecording.net/bbs/archive/index.php/f-27.html
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 12/05/2006 09:19:01 AM |
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Podagee57
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2006 : 09:17:18 AM
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Here's a mic comparison that our own Fran has done and shared with us...thanks Fran.
http://www.fxguidry.com/mictest1/index.htm
Some of these mics can be purchased rather reasonably off e-bay. |
What? You mean high "E" is the TOP string. No way dude! That changes everything! |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2006 : 4:00:30 PM
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I use the Fostex MR 8 and it does a more than adequate job for me. However, I only go 3 or 4 trax at the most. Most of the time, just 2. Easy to get the final files into computer for editing or to burn a disk. Has some effects, but at the price you can add a drum machine and still be under budget. I'm definitely a low end user.
When I looked at the good drum machines, however, they seemed very complicated to use. As things get more sophisticated, and therefore sound less "square" and "canned" they also get more complicated to set up. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 09:32:58 AM
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Here's a thought to consider before making your decisions about mics & other recording gear:
How much did you spend on your guitar?
Why is that important? Simply put: if you've spent upwards of $1000 or $2000 or $3000 on a fine solid wood acoustic guitar, then it is obvious that the sound of that instrument is important to you. And if that is the case, then why the heck would you try to cram that great huge beautiful voice into a $79 microphone??!!!
It's the same with all your gear -- there is simply no way to adequately record an acoustic instrument if you don't use tools that match the quality of the source. You don't have to spend a bundle, but isn't it sorta silly to lay out a couple grand for yer axe and then cheap out and spend less than a hundred bucks on mics? And don't forget monitor speakers, amps, preamps, converters, headphones, etc etc???
Yes, you can make home recordings for not a hell of a lot. But your recordings will only be as good as the weakest link. Hence my note about springing for some reasonably good mics. To which I'll add: buy some decent monitor speakers and headphones, too.
Every engineer has his/her/its own favorites, so asking someone for a list is like asking for an argument.
That being said, here's a list. You should have both a large diaphragm and a small diaphragm condensor at minimum.
The A list is made of of new, easy to find stuff that I've used when I'm in a real studio. The B list is stuff I've had experience with (or have heard about from people I trust) that does a reasonable job for a heck of a lot less money.
A List
Large
Any thing from Neumann, espicially U87 & M149
BLUE Blueberry and Mouse (surprisingly good on guitar)
AKG c414 B-XLS & c 414-B-XLII (new mics, not as good as what they replace, but still great on guitar)
Beyer M 834 - my personal vocal mic. Great for baritones, horrid for altos
Audio-Technica AT4047 - some vocalists shine with this mic
Small (get a pair for stereo)
Nuemann KM 184 -- my fav for guitar
AKG c451b - my fav for mando and other bright boxes. ditto drum ovrs
Audio-Technica AT4041 & 4051 - nice on drum ovrs
Shure SM 81 - ditto
Earthworks SR30 & TC20 - amazing! But you need a tightly controlled space to take advantage of 'em
The B list
Large
Rode NT 1 & NT 2 - nice mic, not expensive. A great choice for anyone recording guitar & voice on a budget.
Audio-Technica 30 and 40 series
AKG C 3000 - bright, sorta a poor man's c414
AKG Perception series -- haven't heard 'em, but good rep
Shure KSM series
BLUE - anything. They are uniformly excellent, though quirky in the extreme. That means you need to match the mic to the sound & the sound to the mic. Not a one-mic-does-everything kind of company.
Small
AKG c1000 s -- Operate on phantom or battery power. Kinda a poor mans 451; I own two.
Sure KSM series
Audio Technica 30 and 20 series
Rode NT 5
Rode NT 4 -- a stereo mic that run on phantom or batteries. Great mic in the studio and for remote recording (in a field, wearing down...)
Oh, dymanics: Not my first choice for recording, with the exception of the Sennheiser MD 421 and the EV RE 20. Also, Ribbbon mics. I love 'em, but don't recommend them for newbies.
OK, there are some choices for you. You'll notice that the words "Samson," Nady," MXL" etc didn't show up. Buy one if you want -- just don't complain when your custom Grimes sounds like a plastic balalaika... Likewise, Lawrence's comment on quality is dead on -- buy two identical mics and they might sound like they were made in alternate universes.
OK, that oughta stir the pot.
Don't forget yer monitor system!
And by the way, did I mention I wrote a book about recording?
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FROPPE
Akahai
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2006 : 3:36:52 PM
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Mahalo to everyone for your input. I sincerely appreciate it, and will use your suggestions and experiences in my shopping.
Mahalo,
Ben Sterling |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2006 : 06:34:35 AM
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| To Mark's B list in the large category I'd add the Studio Projects LSD2...the best stereo mic you can buy for under $1,000. (I got mine new for $500.) |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 12/13/2006 06:34:59 AM |
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