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mpi_50
Lokahi
USA
133 Posts |
 Posted - 01/25/2007 : 8:41:32 PM
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Simple for you but hard for me! How do I go from standard tuning to Taro Patch tuning with one guitar and no pitch pipe (or any other tuning device). There has to be a better way than tuning one guitar to Taro Patch and grab another one to match that tuning (electric and acoustic). Thanks!
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kihoalukid
Lokahi
USA
289 Posts |
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Fingerpickin
Lokahi
117 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2007 : 07:07:57 AM
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mpi_50
Don't forget to double check the tuning using harmonics on the 12th fret. Remember that 1,4, and 6 strings are all tuned to "D" and 3 and 5 to "G" so you can use both open plucking and the 12th fret harmonic to double check.
However, a small investment in a chromatic tuner is the way to go for playing slack, as eventually you'll want to break out of standard taropatch tuning. I have several, but one I like most cost me $10.
Good luck!
-Lance |
"Hey Lance, try watch." -Ozzie |
Edited by - Fingerpickin on 01/26/2007 08:21:52 AM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2007 : 08:40:54 AM
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quote:
Simple for you but hard for me! How do I go from standard tuning to Taro Patch tuning with one guitar and no pitch pipe (or any other tuning device)
No tuner needed. Assuming you are in standard:
Step one: Play the open 4th string and drop the first string a bit till it sounds one octave higher. An octave is a very easy interval to hear.
Step two: Sound the open 3rd string and drop the 5th string a bit until it sounds one octave lower. An octave is a very easy interval to hear, remember?
Step three: Sound the Open 4th string and drop the 6th string a bit until it sounds one octave lower. An octave is a very easy interval to hear, as you now know.
Step four: Strum all the strings and listen for a nice sweet chord. Adjust accordingly (pun intended.) Harmonics can help.
OK, so how much is "a bit?" In musical terms, a whole step. The distance between two frets. So the high E drops a whole step to D, the 5th string drops a whole step from A to G and the 6th a whole step from E to D. "A bit" means: twist the knobs enough to make that difference, not so much that the string goes totally floppy, but more that the teensy bit most beginners use. Give it a good twist.
Tuning by ear is the way everyone did it for centuries and it is still more accurate* than any tuner made. Save the tuner for when you change strings, or tune in a noisy jam session, or to simply find a starting point.
As I always tell my students, digital tuners will get your guitar absolutely, mathematically, precisely... out of tune. Always adjust your tuning by ear.
And, as you develop your ear, you'll find it is easier to learn new songs.
Cheers,
Mark
* maybe "accurate" isn't the proper word. Better? More pleasing?
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Edited by - Mark on 01/26/2007 08:50:31 AM |
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Fingerpickin
Lokahi
117 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2007 : 09:44:15 AM
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Mark,
I respectfully disagree with you.
First of all, I have played with countless guitarist claiming to "be in tune" and in reality they are woefully out of tune. You may have seen the popular "Tune it or Die" T-shirts as a result of many peoples frustration with this.
Let's say you and I get together to play. Beforehand, you tune your guitar by ear, and it is in tune, and I do the same. Even though both guitars are "in tune" what are the chances that they are precisely tuned *together?* Close to zero, I'd say. So somebodys gonna have to re-tune.
Another factor is the absolute fact that many (most?) of us are unable to discriminate between very subtle tone differences. Most folks can get close, but will not be able to hit that tone precisely and the guitar will sound bad as a result.
I've used digital tuners for years with no problems at all. They have issues, to be sure, and some tweaking intonation-wise will be required. However, they serve as a standard which we can all use to play in tune *together* and serve as a serious aid to the many of us out there with less-than perfect tone discrimination.
Just my opinion about what works best for me. But I'd bet my money on my tuner over my 44 year old abused ears, any day of the week!
-Lance
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"Hey Lance, try watch." -Ozzie |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2007 : 1:07:15 PM
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My 2 cents...
Sometimes I need to tune by ear or by using fretted intervals when I am at a music store, but only if I forgot my tuner. So, for me the need does arise from time to time but not often. |
Bob |
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ArtSap
Lokahi
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2007 : 1:47:32 PM
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| ...and, if you're playing together in a group for a performance, it's a good idea for everyone to use the same tuner in the event that someone's tuner isn't accurate. |
Art
SF Bay Area, CA / Mililani, HI
"The real music comes from within you - not from the instrument" |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2007 : 3:24:26 PM
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Whoa, Mr. Pickin', go back and read the original question and my answer to same.
The guy wanted to know how to tune without a tuner, so I told him.
I'm not anti tuner, I'm pre ear training.
quote:
some tweaking intonation-wise will be required.
Which is exactly what I said. Use the tuner as a reference when needed, then sweeten by ear.
So you see, we really don't disagree at all.
Ain't life grand? |
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Larry Goldstein
Lokahi
267 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2007 : 07:57:57 AM
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Here's another tuning technique for that pesky B string.
When you think you have it just right, double-check by playing the harmonic on the 3rd string, ninth fret, and the second string, fifth fret. These are faint harmonics, but they should sound identical.
Here's a question. I can't disagree with Mark (like, I'm in a position to disagree with a real pro?  )but I'm curious about the electronic tuners that performers use on stage. Are they just superior to say, a Sabine AX-2000?
Larry |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2007 : 09:29:51 AM
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Larry, et al.
Digital tuners all do the same thing: they count vibrations either via a mic or via a piezo element and then assign a value to it.
Different brands and makes of tuners do this with various degrees of precision -- even the cheapest are miles ahead of the stuff we used to use. Yes, I bought a pocket-sized Korg chromatic tuner for around $200 wholesale in the 80s.
I own maybe a half dozen, including a dandy little koa-wood one made by the guy that created the original Sabine ST-1000 (I have one of those, too.) I've A/B'ed 'em next to each other, and all do just fine in stable, test conditions-- new strings, no external noise. In other words, they all will tell me an 440 tuning fork is an A.
But sometimes a tuner will give false readings -- the Intellitouch PT1 is notorious for this when the batteries start to go. I have one of those, too.
The issue is what happens in the real world. Do the batteries last a long time? Can you read the display on stage? In the daylight??? Does it give false reading when there is a lot of noise??
Keola uses some internal deal that's powered from the same battery that juices the pre-amp. Is it more "accurate" than the stick-on tuner Bradda Matt gave me? I doubt it. But it's a heck of a lot easier to read. Some guys use huge rack mounted tuners that you can read from 50' away. I used to tour with a woman who lugged around a massive Stropes (if memory serves) Strobe-o-scopic tuner. Accurate? Maybe, but it looked impressive.
The current tuner that all the hep cats are excited about is made by Meizel. (I think maybe Intelliltouch bought 'em, cuz it's now listed as the Intelli IMT 500 at Elderly.) Is it "better?" I don't know. I like it cuz it is ez to read.
No matter what tuner you use, you will need to adjust the tuning using your ear. Why? The short answer is that we prefer to hear certain musical intervals that aren't mathematically perfect.
Even If I use a tuner to get the basic pitches, I'll tune the B string slightly flat if I'm playing in Taropatch (I like very short thirds); but if I'll be playing in Drop C, the B comes back up to "pitch" and I might temper the two Ds.
Also, you adjust your tuning depending on where on the guitar you'll be playing. And your string tension. And how hard you grab the neck. And how hard you pick... none of which can be adjusted mathematically. Otherwise we'd all buy guitars with servo-tuners.
Which is why I tell my students not to trust their tuners. Sure, your open strings may be "in tune," but it sounds gawdawful when you start to play. Use tuners as a starting point, then learn to hear.
Oh, one last thing: if you are having trouble tuning in a quiet room, either by ear or with a tuner, it usually means your strings are old and can't output clear fundamental tones and nice sweet harmonic overtones. Change 'em.
End of sermon.
Like Nigel Tufnel said, We tune because sometimes we can...
cheers,
Mark |
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JeffC
Lokahi
USA
189 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2007 : 08:29:59 AM
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It was good to read this last post from Mark. While I have only been playing slack key seriously for the last couple of years, I have been playing guitar for several decades and always tuned using a tuning fork for one string and the rest by ear. After slack key took control of my life, I bought a tuner to more quickly get into the desired tunings.
Just yesterday I was having trouble getting Taropatch to sound the way it should (occassionally our cold, dry winter air can be an issue) and was using the tuner. I specifically noticed (and remember sort of muttering to myself that it always seems to be this way; "maybe this #%%# tuner is faulty...") that after tuning so the tuner said I was good to go, I kept having to tune the B string a little flat to get it to sound right.
Nice to hear from a trusted professional that it's OK to trust my ear and to hear why that might be a good idea.
mahalo
Jeff |
Jeff
Making Trout Country safe for Slack Key! |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2007 : 6:43:11 PM
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| I used to have trouble tuning to F wahine (3rd string as I recall) so I got a peterson Vsam tuner. Once I found a good adjustment I could save and recall it. Now I either get in tune right off or I am close. |
Bob |
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mpi_50
Lokahi
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2007 : 7:11:01 PM
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| Thanks Mark. Small world,I lived in Trail, went to HS in Eagle Point and my sister used to live on Jasmine St. in Jacksonville. Thanks for the info, I don't read music, tabs and chords sure. Therfore saying tune this string to g, or d doesn't mean anything. Once again thanks, and if you see Keola say "howzit" to him (classmate, class of 70, Kamehameha). I'm working right now so as soon as I can I'll give it a shot! |
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Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
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mpi_50
Lokahi
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2007 : 6:05:15 PM
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| Bradda Fran, the last time I went to Honolulu Grill was a short leave before going to Kosovo. I ordered lau lau and my friend Dennis Guila (kajukenbo sensei) grabbed the last one. It's good to know that I have some local (?) assistance. |
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Fingerpickin
Lokahi
117 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2007 : 7:33:15 PM
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quote:
Whoa, Mr. Pickin', go back and read the original question and my answer to same.
Mark,
My sincerest aplogies if my words were taken to be harsh. That was certainly not my intent, and yes I think we basically agree.
As for the tuners used by pros on stage, I've heard the strobe tuners are spot on, but I've never used one. As others have mentioned however, one of the problems we face is sypathetic vibration...say you're tuning your 4th sting to "D" and you're getting close, the 6th and 1st strings will start to vibrate in sympathy. This is why I usually hold down the other stings lightly (not fretted, just light pressure over the sound hole) This seems to calm down the sympathetic vibration and isolate the string better. Of course, the type of guitar you use and its overtones also play a role.
Intonation is another problem, the fact that your guitar may be in tune when played "open" but then when you fret notes on say the 10th fret the guitar is no longer in tune. This can usually be corrected by a talented luthier as the saddle is sometimes the culprit here. (Intonation is affected by the total length of your sting, and the strings wound around the topmost tuning pegs, usually the 3rd and 4th strings, are longer than the other strings.)
Well that's a lot more than I planned on saying which was bascially "sorry Mark."
Have a great one everyone and play on!
-Lance |
"Hey Lance, try watch." -Ozzie |
Edited by - Fingerpickin on 01/29/2007 7:34:56 PM |
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