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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
 Posted - 03/12/2007 : 11:13:22 AM
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OK, I got all the hardware, watched Brozman's DVD yesterday, and I put the National into TP and started trying things out today.
First, let me say, that, for a crip like me, the lap steel is perfect - the hand ergonomics are wonderful for me and I can even slope my legs down and sit on a proper seat with a proper angle to save my spine. Wonderful. Should be advertised as physical therapy.
So, I worked up and tabbed 2 songs for it today: E Lili`u e and Pua Mikinolia. And I can do the vamps OK and figured out a few of my own. So, I can solo and it sounds OK (my timing needs work and all the obvious stuff, but it wasn't bad for an hour's work).
But I really don't want to just solo. I know I can pa`ani with what I have done (and I'll do more), but I really want to be an added voice to Sarah's playing and singing.
KonaBob, you remember that night at George's on Maui? Sarah was playing slack key and you were filling in doing lots of nice nahenahe things. You didn't necessarily anticipate what Sarah was going to play, but you fit in so well. What in heck did you do?
If Mark reads this (you were there, my friend):
Gerry Valdriz did the same kind of things at Waihe`e, and I watched him closely for about an hour, but I wasn't educated enough to sort out what he was doing. Yes, he would take a nice lead every once in a while, but he was mostly fitting in beautifully.
No hotdogging Brozman-style for me.
The BAD THING about steel is that there are only 2 DVDs I know of or show up on the HSGA site: Brozman's and Lorene Ruymar (I emailed her, but no answer yet, so I don't know how to get her material).
Any suggestions besides the occasional vamp and solo pa`ani?
...Reid
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Julie H
Ha`aha`a
USA
1206 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2007 : 7:09:23 PM
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Ah Reid, you are surpassing me already! You know, some of us have to work! So not much play yet. 
I do remember one thing very clearly and that is that the steel guitar "adds the accents".
I did watch Gerry one evening at Keith's house on Maui, and noticed that he was very gentle with his accents, and when he sang, he put his hands down. One thing at a time...
As for Brozman, I recognized some of the style he's using while listening to some CD's of very old records. And the more I get to know Bob, the more I like him. As a person. He may be a hotdog, but you always know where he stands on political issues. At least we agree on some of those issues!
I'll start practicing on my Rickenbacher now that I know we can play together...
Aloha, Julie |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 02:54:38 AM
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Hey Julie, the only reason that I could do the little I could was because the guitar is in TP, so the vamps, 3rds, 6ths, etc. were very interesting variations on what I already knew. And I did a complete search of this forum (see, I follow my own advice :-)and got some good info - like K-Bob's advice about which slide and which strings, and GaryA's neat tabbed vamp variations. The 1st 3rd of Brozman's DVD was very helpful about basic technique, using only the top 3 strings, and understanding how to go up the neck, rather than across the neck, to find the sound. That's how I could create versions of songs I already knew the melody of (which :-). Also, I could *see* what equipment he was using - like the kind of fingerpicks (which nobody ever mentioned here or in the DVD). Actually, I think slack key and `ukulele players could benefit a lot by just trying to learn lap steel - there are lots of things to put in their bag of tricks.
You almost have all the knowledge you need to *solo* by knowing how to play the `uke. Just change the fretting position of the 1st string one note up the neck. Or adjust the top string to D, as I have done. Then imagine the slide as your fingers and, if the chord shape is impossible to get with a just a straight or slant, drop the impossible note. Imagine: *me* giving advice when I need it so badly.
But, I still don't know what you mean by "accents". That is what made me ask this question. I have listened to lots of CDs with steel players playing with guitar players - like Barney Isaacs and George Kuo, a couple of tracks of Kevin's CDs, I have heard Greg Sardihna at Duke's, watched Gerry, etc. But my ear can't translate what I am hearing to what they are actually doing.
I need a more mechanistic explanation. Actually, I need a teacher. But, there are none anywhere near here who can play Hawaiian style (and even Nashville-style dobro players are rare). So, I am *pleading* for some help from my friends here.
...Reid |
Edited by - Reid on 03/13/2007 02:57:43 AM |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 03:49:47 AM
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| Reid, Slipry1 can get you in touch with Henry Allen on Maui. Henry gives mail order lessons with tab. He is a proponent of C6 and C13, but once you understand the chordal possibilities, it's a thing of joy. Allen Akaka also gives lessons. Check with Patrick Landeza for info on him. Warning: kika kila is addictive. |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 05:33:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by thumbstruck
Reid, Slipry1 can get you in touch with Henry Allen on Maui.
Henry gives mail order lessons with tab. He is a proponent of C6 and C13, but once you understand the chordal possibilities, it's a thing of joy. Allen Akaka also gives lessons. Check with Patrick Landeza for info on him. Warning: kika kila is addictive.
Henry's website is http://www.henrykallen.com/. His phone # and e-mail address are there, too. He has a CD, a tab book consisting of numbers from the CD, and a CD of backup tracks. Very good. Back at the start of this thread, you spoke of backups for a vocalist or soloist. This is called "doing fills". It is a fine art, and difficult to master for someone used to playing all the time. You have to play in the "holes" created by pauses in the melody line (held notes, end of phrase, end of verse, etc). There is a natural tendency to play too much, which gets in the way of the soloist. You have to get it into your mind that you are not the star until you are given a solo. For me, it's like I am in hyperspace, invisible to the audience, until the leader says "take it", and out I pop. Instead of "look at me, look at me!!", the feeling of the listener should be "who was that masked man?" I am constantly fighting the urge to play too much. Alan Akaka advised me to listen to Feets Rogers with the Sons of Hawaii and emulate him. Feets was what I call a deceptively simple player - a master of his instrument who seemed to be playing the simplest of fills, but not so. I'm thinking of compiling a collection of vamps for the classic II - V - I endings. I recommend listening to Bobby Ingano on the Martin Pahinui album "Ho'olohe" or to Casey Olsen on Raitea Helm's "Sweet and Lovely" as well. Brozman plays the old style of Hawaiian steel, from the 1920's and 30's, which doesn't fit with much of what we play. I have a friend, Ben Bonham, who plays in that style but is very good at fills. In summary, material which is aimed at solo work will not help you at all as an accompianist. Good luck. |
keaka |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 05:38:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by slipry1
quote:
Originally posted by thumbstruck
Reid, Slipry1 can get you in touch with Henry Allen on Maui.
Henry gives mail order lessons with tab. He is a proponent of C6 and C13, but once you understand the chordal possibilities, it's a thing of joy. Allen Akaka also gives lessons. Check with Patrick Landeza for info on him. Warning: kika kila is addictive.
Henry's website is http://www.henrykallen.com/. His phone # and e-mail address are there, too. He has a CD, a tab book consisting of numbers from the CD, and a CD of backup tracks. Very good. Back at the start of this thread, you spoke of backups for a vocalist or soloist. This is called "doing fills". It is a fine art, and difficult to master for someone used to playing all the time. You have to play in the "holes" created by pauses in the melody line (held notes, end of phrase, end of verse, etc). There is a natural tendency to play too much, which gets in the way of the soloist. You have to get it into your mind that you are not the star until you are given a solo. For me, it's like I am in hyperspace, invisible to the audience, until the leader says "take it", and out I pop. Instead of "look at me, look at me!!", the feeling of the listener should be "who was that masked man?" I am constantly fighting the urge to play too much. Alan Akaka advised me to listen to Feets Rogers with the Sons of Hawaii and emulate him. Feets was what I call a deceptively simple player - a master of his instrument who seemed to be playing the simplest of fills, but not so. I'm thinking of compiling a collection of vamps for the classic II - V - I endings. I recommend listening to Bobby Ingano on the Martin Pahinui album "Ho'olohe" or to Casey Olsen on Raitea Helm's "Sweet and Lovely" as well. Brozman plays the old style of Hawaiian steel, from the 1920's and 30's, which doesn't fit with much of what we play. I have a friend, Ben Bonham, who plays in that style but is very good at fills. In summary, material which is aimed at solo work will not help you at all as an accompianist. Good luck.
One more thought - You might be able to get to Lorene through the International Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association - she was the president a while back. She wrote the book on the history of the Hawaiian steel guitar. I'm going to the convention in Honolulu the end of April. I learn a lot at thses things because I hear and watch a lot of great steelers. |
keaka |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 07:23:39 AM
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Yes, that's exactly it. it. I want to play in the "holes". The fills. I *can* identify them, but I can't figure out what I play there. That is just my problem. Is it vamps? Is it an echo of the last sung phrase? Is it a variation of the last sung phrase using 3rds or 5ths or 6ths? All of the above? I listen, but the hole goes by so fast that my brain can't process what I hear. Then it is too late to do anything. So, I need a conceptual structure that I can internalize so I don't have to think about it. I did that with slack key vamps and they were automatic (until I was forced to stop practicing). They have a conceptual structure that I understood, and I could do any one of about 20 variations of them at will. I need that with slide fills.
As for being a "star" or "look at me", that is the antithesis of what I want to be. The only 2 reasons we (Sarah and I) solo so much are: 1. there ain't nobody here but us, and 2. right now, in the beginning of my learning slide technique, I can practice landing on the right fret, or damp, or palm chime, or whatever, and concentrate on that, instead of the songs, because I know the melody of each of the songs and know what the notes should sound like. BUT, after I get all the physical/mechanical parts under my fingernails like dirt, I want to stop that and do the fills. BTW, Sarah, like Andy, and many other people I could name *should* be soloists, or the lead guitarist and singer. They were made for that. But, my ideal is that the end product of what Sarah and I do together should make Sarah and her songs sound as good as they can. If Sarah is Ray Charles, I want to be the Raylet.
Thanks for the CD suggestions. I will get them immediately. And I will look over the website right now.
I did get Lorene's email address from the HSGA web site, and her rudimentary site, and emailed her, but have gotten no response yet. Maybe she is just busy. Is there another way through HSGA? I really, really would like to get her DVDs and book with tabs, because the video clips of it suggest that it is a perfect set for a beginner.
And, most importantly, I am a visually and intellectually oriented learner. I can not do it just by listening.
All further suggestions very gratefully accepted.
...Reid
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Edited by - Reid on 03/13/2007 07:28:31 AM |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 07:49:20 AM
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I just listened to "Ho'olohe" - we have it, but hadn't played it in a long time. The slide playing is fantastic and Ingano is doing all kinds of stuff on it. I can detect the vamps he does, but he is doing other interesting short bits and also doing gorgeous duets sotto voce - perfectly valid and complete melodies, but different from Martin's voice or guitar. It is like Puccini or Verdi, where they get duets, septets, octets going and everyone is singing a perfectly complete melody, valid by itself, but harmonizing all together. I will listen repeatedly, but it is daunting to contemplate doing.
...Reid |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 09:06:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Reid
I just listened to "Ho'olohe" - we have it, but hadn't played it in a long time. The slide playing is fantastic and Ingano is doing all kinds of stuff on it. I can detect the vamps he does, but he is doing other interesting short bits and also doing gorgeous duets sotto voce - perfectly valid and complete melodies, but different from Martin's voice or guitar. It is like Puccini or Verdi, where they get duets, septets, octets going and everyone is singing a perfectly complete melody, valid by itself, but harmonizing all together. I will listen repeatedly, but it is daunting to contemplate doing.
...Reid
I'd like to help, but first, I have a few questions. What kind of steel are you playing? How many strings does it have? The tunings that help best for Hawaiian music, IMHO, are the 6th ones. I personally use a C13, from bottom to top - Bb E G A C E. The C6th Has an A on the bottom (see elsewhere in the steel thread for more info). The tuning sounds Hawaiian!! I play along with the record, not trying to copy what the steel player is doing, or, for a solo slack key piece, I don't worry. Try playing one note at the chord position required (you need to know where the chords are - for instance, F is at the 5th fret for a C6). Then try 2 notes; the 1st & 2nd string or the 2nd and 4th. See how that sounds. Go from there. Get Henry Allen's book, and learn some tunes from it to feel how to get around the neck. There are mysteries about where 2 note chords are located. For instance, the 2nd and 3rd strings are a C and an A, which are the 5 and 3 notes of the F chord. |
keaka |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 10:38:51 AM
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Keaka,
I am using Open G, because, I know the fretboard, the vamps and all the patterns so well, and because KonaBob has recommended it and done so well with it, and because it has the same intervals as Open A, which Lorene uses (since I want to get her instructional DVD and book) and, finally because Sarah uses it and its relatives and I mean to play behind her.
I am playing a 6 string wooden National Resonator, with a nut extender, loaned to me until I understand if I can actually do what I want to and if my body cooperates. If it works out, I'll get my own instrument. I am experimenting with strings. At the moment, I am simply using the regular D`addario PB lights that it came with, but have the EJ42 set that KonaBob recommended and a GHS 1600 semiflat set. I am using the Shubb SP2 slide K-Bob suggested.
Frankly, I would get stopped in my tracks using a tuning new to me, even though it is clear that the top 3 strings, ACE, have the same intervals as Open G. I can arrange music nearly intuitively in Open G and can judge what I am doing rapidly. If I get off on a very new tuning right now, regardless of how good it would be for me to learn it, I just won't be able to answer the questions I have that I alluded to in the second paragraph and in my first post.
I appreciate your help and suggestions very much, and would do whatever you think best, except for changing the tuning right now. Please don't think I am being stupidly obstinate; I simply need a stable base from which to launch myself.
...Reid |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 1:26:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Reid
Keaka,
I am using Open G, because, I know the fretboard, the vamps and all the patterns so well, and because KonaBob has recommended it and done so well with it, and because it has the same intervals as Open A, which Lorene uses (since I want to get her instructional DVD and book) and, finally because Sarah uses it and its relatives and I mean to play behind her.
I am playing a 6 string wooden National Resonator, with a nut extender, loaned to me until I understand if I can actually do what I want to and if my body cooperates. If it works out, I'll get my own instrument. I am experimenting with strings. At the moment, I am simply using the regular D`addario PB lights that it came with, but have the EJ42 set that KonaBob recommended and a GHS 1600 semiflat set. I am using the Shubb SP2 slide K-Bob suggested.
Frankly, I would get stopped in my tracks using a tuning new to me, even though it is clear that the top 3 strings, ACE, have the same intervals as Open G. I can arrange music nearly intuitively in Open G and can judge what I am doing rapidly. If I get off on a very new tuning right now, regardless of how good it would be for me to learn it, I just won't be able to answer the questions I have that I alluded to in the second paragraph and in my first post.
I appreciate your help and suggestions very much, and would do whatever you think best, except for changing the tuning right now. Please don't think I am being stupidly obstinate; I simply need a stable base from which to launch myself.
...Reid
OK. I didn't mean to sound harsh, just to say that, since the 1940's, almost all Hawaiian steelers have used some sort of 6th tuning, which gives you that sound you want. Don't be afraid, it's not that hard. If you stay in G, do fills with the top 2 strings (B & G) for a while. Do you know about bar slants? That is how you play scales - slant the bar for any place on the fretboard where you are not in a I, IV or V chord position using strings 4 and 6. Have fun! |
keaka |
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Julie H
Ha`aha`a
USA
1206 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 6:20:20 PM
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Hi Reid,
I started with the same premise, knowing a little bit about open G tuning, I stayed in that tuning for the comfort zones. Then Kevin Brown tweaked the tuning on my steel, and I've been a little apprehensive about practicing. Also, because I am so busy with other things, I haven't really had the time to dedicate to truly learning.
Oh, and by "accents" I meant those fills, Feet did those so beautifully with that Rogers tuning that he used. Hard on the strings, though. Lots of snapping and breaking going on in class at Aloha Music Camp that Feb. when Fred Lunt was teaching steel in that Rogers tuning.
We should get together and play... 
Julie |
Edited by - Julie H on 03/13/2007 6:21:07 PM |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2007 : 03:59:31 AM
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Jack, thanks, that's just the sort of hint I could use. I don't need notes, I need concepts, and that's one. Sure I know how to do those slants; a bit shaky right now on hitting the bottom string note exactly, because I can't really see it well, but I'll get better - it's a mechanical thing, not a conceptual problem.
Any more conceptual hints about fill "structure", anyone?
Here's my research project plan for the next month:
Track 1:
A.The steel is a "voice", like a singer, so I stick with the melody on songs I have tabbed, practice solos, until I get the picking, bar straights and slants, palm chimes, damping, timing, etc. down. And have a little fun.
B. Since, I tabbed the 2 songs and just finished recording and mastering Sarah doing Pua Mikinolia (and she can play and sing E Liliu `e easily enough in a quick recording session), I figure out where in the songs fills should go, create a few, play against the tracks from my computer and see how they work. If they don't, I just try again until they do.
Track 2:
A. Keep listening to Bobby Ingano and Martin and pick out one or two songs I know and rip them.
B. Suppress Martin's voice and guitar and boost Bobby's fills so I can hear them clearly.
C. Figure out where the "holes" are that Bobby plays in. (trivial)
D. Analyze the fills, note for note (easy) and tab them, or some of them.
E. Figure out how how the fills tonally relate to Martin's singing and playing. (not too hard, but requires some thought)
F. Play some of Bobby's fills by myself until I know them well.(just endurance)
G. Play those fills with the original recording until I can hit the holes on time and play the fill properly (will take work).
Sound about right?
Julie, first use the Alternate Tuning Applet to map the fretboard (or with a steel, the "virtual" fretboard) and the important chord positions and 3rds and 6ths, etc. Doing that is fast; learning where they are by practicing is hard and takes time - which is one of the several reasons I want to stay in TP. At least you have a conceptual leg up on the tuning and are not flying blind. Really - *blind*. If you don't have a map, you might as well close your eyes.
And, it would be neat to play together, if I ever really learn how to do this. Put Larry and Sarah into the mix and we have a band! You guys gonna move to the Right Coast :-) OTW, I gotta rent an air ambulance to get to where you are :-)
Again: Any more handy dandy concept hints for fills? Don't all reply at once :-)
...Reid
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2007 : 07:36:03 AM
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quote:
Again: Any more handy dandy concept hints for fills? Don't all reply at once :-)
Play less. Then play even less.
I'd also suggest spending lots of time listening to Feets Rogers -- he's the touchstone of every modern Hawaii steel player. Also, listen to Fred Lunt... he's the one guy who has totally assimilated that style.
Watching him play, it appears that he waits untill the absolute last micro second after a vocal phrase, and then drops in either a couple palm harmonics (chord tones like 3rds & 5ths) or a two to three note melodic figure, often based on a ii-V of the chord in question.
And turnarounds, of course. Which can be as few as three or four notes.
The Rogers tuning is just a couple of E major triads with the top string tuned to a third. In that way, it very much like C 6th (without the 6th, 'natch.)
One more thing: Rogers style appears to use a fairly large, but discreet, set of riffs that get dropped in as needed. Learn a handful and you'll on your way.
Then play less.
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islandboo
Lokahi
USA
237 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2007 : 09:06:27 AM
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quote:
And, it would be neat to play together, if I ever really learn how to do this. Put Larry and Sarah into the mix and we have a band! You guys gonna move to the Right Coast :-) OTW, I gotta rent an air ambulance to get to where you are :-)
You guys should just split the difference and meet up in a nice central location - I suggest Indiana.... |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2007 : 2:09:08 PM
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Reid,
I found the Youtube link that Fran put up awhile back to be helpful. It's Jerry Byrd playing little fills at the end of each line sung by Marty Robbins. Although dated, it's a primer on how to play sweetly without stomping on the vocalist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_oaEw0p3js
Jesse Tinsley |
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