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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
 Posted - 03/20/2007 : 05:27:33 AM
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Linguistically, I do not know if there is a difference in this beautiful song by calling it "Pua Mana" -- two words or "Puamana" -- one word. I consulted with my second favorite research resource -- Auntie Maria's web site. Four listings are under "Pua Mana" -- one by Steven Espaniola, one by Uncle George Kahumoku and two by the ubiquitous "various artists". Conversely, there are 26 listings for "Puamana". Additionally, in the sung lyrics, first verse, second line, where it says "Me na pua `ala onaona" I have heard "onaona" pronounced two different ways. Uncle George and a few others pronounce it as "oh-naow-na", while many others pronounce it as "oh-na-oh-na". It seems to mee that the latter way is easier to vocalize while singing, at least for me, because the short syllables are a pattern familiar to me. The way Uncle George does it appears to me to be the probable correct way based on the rules I have encountered and based on the fact there are no diacritical marks such as `okina. Harder for me to sing them that way because the vowels flowing together is not a voice pattern that I normally have used in my every day English language.
Anyone could help me understand what is proper? Or is it "poetic" license just to make it easier to sing?
Mahalo.
Wanda
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Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 03/20/2007 05:28:47 AM |
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Puna
Lokahi
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 06:32:08 AM
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I have discussed this word with several people, including some of the language instructors at UHH and also with Kaliko and Nona Beamer.
They say while it is permissable to say "owenahowenah" (note NO glottal stops), the most common pronunciation is "oweNOWnah". I think that this is how Dennis Kamakahi pronounces it in his songs.
Na Puke Wehewehe 'Olelo Hawai'i gives the following definition:
onaona: softly fragrant; soft frangrance or perfume; gentle and sweet as the eyes or disposition; inviting, attractive, alluring, lovely.
A very common usage, especially in songs, is "keonaona" (kayoweNOWnah). Ke onaona would be 'the onaona', so you are discussing something or someone who has those qualities.
'ona'ona (owenah owenah) is an entirely different word.
'ona'ona: faint, dizzy, punch drunk; or bad smelling, as stagnant water.
I have also heard songs (and I apologize since I can't remember the title...something about a pua, which DOESN'T narrow it down) where the singers often 'punch' each syallable for effect: "Ke OWEna OWEna", which may be interesting musically, but (for me) ruins the song since I know both translations.
BTW - why did I have such an interest in this word? Maybe my wife, Keonaona, can answer that! |
Puna |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 06:43:17 AM
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Onaona has been discussed before on this site. Seems there was a change a few years back by the Hawaiian linguists on the proper pronunciation, depending upon the intended meaning. Oh-na-Oh-na means "exceedingly drunk", whereas Oh-naow-na means "sweetly fragrant" so far as I know. More recent recordings stress the latter pronounciation, while some older ones use the former. Also, sometimes they might actually want to mean "drunken".
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 03/20/2007 06:58:49 AM |
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 06:43:35 AM
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Hey, Wanda-
There are very smart language mavens on this site who know way more than me … uh, more than I (see what I mean?), but until they chime in, here’s my stab at this:
“Puamana” the song is named for an actual place (Irmgard Aluli’s family home), and the home’s name is written as one word, even though formed from two other words. Compare this to the name of the steamer “Maunaloa” and the song by the same name, formed from the two-word name of the mountain.
I’ve found that when looking for a song title on mele.com (or itunes or wherever), just try any spelling you can think of, because the albums themselves may not have followed strict spelling rules.
Regarding “onaona,” I’ve certainly heard this as three syllables and as four syllables by the same singer on two songs on the same album (Ata Damasco on Holoholo Mai Maui in “`Ulupalakua” and “Me Ka Nani a’o Kaupo.”) He has a Ni`ihau accent, but I think the difference comes down to how many beats of music you’re trying to cover with the word. When you cover three beats it sounds to our English ears like a three-syllable word with a diphthong in the middle. With four beats—no diphthong sound.
Wait for the experts to weigh in before taking my word on this, but until then just be sure you don’t slip in an `okina, as is a common English habit between vowels; `ona`ona has a meaning you probably don’t want to convey in your song.
Happy singing.
*** Oops--I see the real experts wrote in while I was posting this reply. Listen to them. ***
-Mike
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Edited by - mike2jb on 03/20/2007 06:48:49 AM |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 06:53:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Puna
I have discussed this word with several people, including some of the language instructors at UHH and also with Kaliko and Nona Beamer.
They say while it is permissable to say "owenahowenah" (note NO glottal stops), the most common pronunciation is "oweNOWnah". I think that this is how Dennis Kamakahi pronounces it in his songs.
Na Puke Wehewehe 'Olelo Hawai'i gives the following definition:
onaona: softly fragrant; soft frangrance or perfume; gentle and sweet as the eyes or disposition; inviting, attractive, alluring, lovely.
A very common usage, especially in songs, is "keonaona" (kayoweNOWnah). Ke onaona would be 'the onaona', so you are discussing something or someone who has those qualities.
'ona'ona (owenah owenah) is an entirely different word.
'ona'ona: faint, dizzy, punch drunk; or bad smelling, as stagnant water.
I have also heard songs (and I apologize since I can't remember the title...something about a pua, which DOESN'T narrow it down) where the singers often 'punch' each syallable for effect: "Ke OWEna OWEna", which may be interesting musically, but (for me) ruins the song since I know both translations.
BTW - why did I have such an interest in this word? Maybe my wife, Keonaona, can answer that!
Onaona was one of a few interesting examples that I examined in my MA thesis which compared similarities and differences in Hawaiian pronunciation in the songs of John Almeida. I subsequently listened to a lot of other songs by other native speakers in Hawaiian, to summarize:
o-nao-na, three syllables is the most common spoken pronunciation. The first a glides into the second o and forms a diphthong.
o-na-o-na, four syllables (but no glottal) is the most common sung pronuciation among older performers. Almedia never sang "o-nao-na" as it is frequently sung these days, and I found few examples of others, such as Lena Machado and Alice Namakelua singing it as "o-nao-na" either. The only cases where I did hear native speakers doing that was in incredibly fast passages where it needed to be squeezed in.
The big "discovery" (if you could call it that) in this research was that among old-time native speakers, a lot of words that have vowel clusters that are usually pronounced as diphthongs when spoken are not when sung. This included
ma-ile - when pronounced stress occurs on the "a". This spoken stress be represented musically by the arrangement of the "a" over a strong beat. In the examples I heard of Almeida, he always stressed the "i".
Same for "i laila" when pronounced stress occurs on the first "a", Almeida stressed the second "i" (i-la-i-la). This does not mean that you pronounce it 'ila'ila, just that the situation of the second "i" is over a beat.
Most interesting was "Hawai'i, which was "ha-wa-i-'i", the first "i" situated on a beat. I remember hearing Keola and Kapono B. singing it this way in Keawaiki, and asked any Nona about it once. Her eyes lit up and she said she remembered hearing her grandmother, Helen Desha Beamer, sing it in that way as well.
This is not to say that people who sing "o-nao-na", "i-lai-la" and "Ha-wai-'i" are wrong, all I was trying to do was to show that sung pronunciation has changed. Since we hold people like Almeida, Machado, Namakelua, and H.D. Beamer in such regard, we should listen carefully to their sung pronunciation in their own songs for clues as to how to sing them in the same way. There is a definite pattern to this, and if people are interested I can expand upon it a bit.
HTH.
Keola |
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 07:11:12 AM
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Sorry this is deviating from Wanda's topic, but Keola, I’m so glad you explained about the difference in spoken and sung pronunciation of some words and the differences in sung words over time. I have been flummoxed recently by a line from the song “Radio Hula” that I can’t get to fit the meter of the music:
“`Ike `ia `o Hawai`i nö e ka `oi.”
One modern singer (Uluwehi Guerrero) uses four beats (accent on first and third) to sing “`o –Ha-wai-`i.” Boyce Rodrigues in the sixties drops the `o and sings “Ha-wa-i-`i.”
Anyone know if the `o before this name is optional? (optional in speech? Only in song? Only if you’re out of syllables?)
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 07:20:26 AM
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When I took an oli class with Kaliko at the AMC last year, we learned a chant containing the word "onaona". Kaliko explained that the pronunciation simply reflected two short words: ona and ona, with no 'okina. He asked us to say ona seven times in a row, first slowly, then faster. Then just say two onas: that was how the word was pronounced. He went further to explain that yes, you often hear onOWna, but that, according to him, was the result of over-compensation resulting from teachers' efforts to illustrate the *absence* of an 'okina in the middle of the word.
Thus, what I learned was that the right way to say it is a smooth onaona, pronouncing each vowel with no particular emphasis on the OW sound, which is only the byproduct (there is a linguistic term for these passing sounds but I forget what it is) of changing vowel shapes from a to o.
The awareness of the presence or absence of an 'okina is one of the things, I have heard, that native English speakers have the most difficulty with in learning Hawaiian. 'Okinas are everywhere in English, and usually quite meaningless. Sometimes, they indicate strong emotion ( "I looked `EVERYwhere, not just over there") or dropped t's (li`l for little). But on the whole, we don't "hear" them unless we work at it. So Wanda, working at making the vowels flow together is not a pattern of normal everyday English, and takes some practice. In fact, one or more of the language textbooks has regular exercises in learning to flow vowels together. When I get a chance I'll check which book it was in and let you know.
I could be wrong, but I don't think one can take poetic license with 'okinas just to make the words easier to sing.
aloha,
Sarah |
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 07:37:21 AM
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Aloha Keola,
Thanks for posting (evidently you posted while I was writing!) I was hoping you would chime in with some of your insights from your thesis research. I'm glad to read them. It helps explain why I've heard "ma-i-le" and "i-la-i-la" so distinctly from Auntie Alice, instead of dipthong-ized. Hope you have time to explain some more. Some time I'll read your thesis ;-). I absolutely loved your 'Ilelani journal.
I'm curious about Mike's question too. I've come across the 'o dropped so many times, can't figure it out.
Mahalo!
-Sarah |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 07:53:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
Linguistically, I do not know if there is a difference in this beautiful song by calling it "Pua Mana" -- two words or "Puamana" -- one word. I consulted with my second favorite research resource -- Auntie Maria's web site. Four listings are under "Pua Mana" -- one by Steven Espaniola, one by Uncle George Kahumoku and two by the ubiquitous "various artists". Conversely, there are 26 listings for "Puamana". Additionally, in the sung lyrics, first verse, second line, where it says "Me na pua `ala
Our (College of Hawaiian Language's) policy is that place names like this are one word, and from what I've noticed folks on O'ahu are doing it the same way. Puamana, Maunakea, Waiakeauka, Lahainaluna. There has been a lot of inconsistency in the past and we're trying to be consistent. You never see Ke Ka'a, Wai He'e or Hono Lulu, do you? ;-)
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 07:58:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mike2jb
Sorry this is deviating from Wanda's topic, but Keola, I’m so glad you explained about the difference in spoken and sung pronunciation of some words and the differences in sung words over time. I have been flummoxed recently by a line from the song “Radio Hula” that I can’t get to fit the meter of the music:
“`Ike `ia `o Hawai`i nö e ka `oi.”
One modern singer (Uluwehi Guerrero) uses four beats (accent on first and third) to sing “`o –Ha-wai-`i.” Boyce Rodrigues in the sixties drops the `o and sings “Ha-wa-i-`i.”
Anyone know if the `o before this name is optional? (optional in speech? Only in song? Only if you’re out of syllables?)
In spoken Hawaiian it is "required" to be grammatically correct, in sung occasionally left out but better left in. In one of my compositions that Kenneth Makuakane recorded, I left out the 'o in that kind of situation (for better phrasing), but when I took it to one of my colleagues to paka, he suggested it would be better left in. |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 08:09:59 AM
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Final thought, on "required", "correct grammar", linguistic "rules", etc...
When I use any of those terms, what I'm really referring to is linguistic norms. Native speakers of any language don't tend to think about rules and grammar a lot. What I've relayed about sung vs. spoken pronunciation, grammar and such are simply based on what we tend to hear prominently among native speakers, those still living and those we only have left from their recorded conversations. There is a lot of variation in some areas, in many others there is tremendous consistency. To the "rules" of Hawaiian grammar are really descriptive in nature, based on our observations of native speech.
When we talk about correct grammar and rules we are starting to take these descriptive elements and become prescriptive with them, which can be dangerous. Hawaiian language, like others, is changing, adding new vocabulary and we try to be careful to not have it too influence by English thought and perspective. We even hear it in the speech of of kupuna. This is not passing judgement, just an observation. It's always good to go back to the source, listen to the old folks for phrasing and word use, and make an enlightened decision. It's nice to see so many in this forum who are making an effort to do so and analyzing these songs in this way. |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 5:01:24 PM
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Auntie Edna, Irmgard Aluli's sister, said that the Aluli family home, Puamana, was the name of a chief who had lived in the area and the name "pua-mana" was coined to mean a powerful youthful leader and did not refer to a flower, as we know the word "pua" to mean.
FWIW,
Jesse Tinsley |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 7:19:54 PM
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| Jesse - thanks for sharing that. I always thought of it as "flower power". |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2007 : 6:14:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Menpachi Man
Keola D. is right. Imagine English scholars discussing the English correctness of Honky Tonk Woman.
manapua anyone? 
Or "I ain't got no satisfaction". We actually did get into a discussion of that when I was in an undergrad linguistics class years ago. Fun stuff. |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2007 : 12:27:28 PM
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| How does all this relate to the concept of poetic license? We were taught that poets and songwriters often used words and pronunciations in unconventional ways for purely artistic effect. Sometimes to fit into the rhyme scheme, at other times to continue the rythmic flow. Sometimes for comic effect. Hawai'ian songs don't seem to rhyme as British based styles do. I almost said European here, but realized I don't know enough about the rest of Europe's languages/ poetry to make that statement. I had enough trouble with english in school; I never took any other language.But when assigned to write poems in school, we were allowed to change the rules of grammar in ways we couldn't in an essay, book report, or other composition. Did Hawai'ian songwriters do this also? I'm enjoying these posts; I like picking the brains of folks more knowlegible than myself. Please bear with me if I don't always grasp what you all say. whatever I learn here is something I didn't know before, so mahalo nui loa. Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2007 : 3:09:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rendesvous1840
How does all this relate to the concept of poetic license? We were taught that poets and songwriters often used words and pronunciations in unconventional ways for purely artistic effect. Sometimes to fit into the rhyme scheme, at other times to continue the rythmic flow. Sometimes for comic effect. Hawai'ian songs don't seem to rhyme as British based styles do. I almost said European here, but realized I don't know enough about the rest of Europe's languages/ poetry to make that statement. I had enough trouble with english in school; I never took any other language.But when assigned to write poems in school, we were allowed to change the rules of grammar in ways we couldn't in an essay, book report, or other composition. Did Hawai'ian songwriters do this also? I'm enjoying these posts; I like picking the brains of folks more knowlegible than myself. Please bear with me if I don't always grasp what you all say. whatever I learn here is something I didn't know before, so mahalo nui loa. Paul
There are many poetic devices available to Hawaiian songwriters and they don't frequently correspond to similar devices in English or other language. Metaphor, linked assonance, place names, words of similar meaning, opposite meaning, iteration, onomatopoeia. A colleague of mine recently listed a couple dozen. Personally I don't believe in the concept of "poetic license" in Hawaiian, at least in the sense that you can abandon the traditional conventions - there are more than enough traditional devices in the poetry that will allow someone to express what they want to express within the existing framework. Usually when I have difficulty expressing what I want to say in a mele, it usually comes down to the fact that the thought that I am expressing doesn't really represent a Hawaiian perspective, and usually when I correct that perspective (sometimes with the help of colleagues and friends) to comes out in a proper way.
You're right, Hawaiian doesn't use rhymes at the end of lines like English does, though it is something that is seen a bit more in modern compositions. I find myself doing it unconsciously on occasion and go back and fix it.
HTH |
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