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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
 Posted - 06/13/2007 : 1:05:18 PM
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Even before I started beginning guitar lessons, I had my list of songs I wished I could play one day. Among them was Daniel Ho’s version of “Hawai`i Pono`i,” which to me sounds appropriately stately and moving. It’s tabbed out in his book “Contemporary Slack Key Guitar” in Daniel’s “G Kilauea” tuning (EBGCGD), a tuning I don’t really want to tackle when just starting out.
Then I discovered I could pretty easily change it into Drop C tuning, because Daniel’s particular arrangement doesn’t use the lowest (D) string at all and is written in key of C. So I just played his 4th string notes on my 6th string in drop C, then made minor appropriate changes to the notes on the top two strings-- and voila--there it was in drop C. Pretty easy, even if it wasn’t perfect.
So my general question as a beginner is about changing tabbed pieces from one slack key tuning into another (I guess “transposing” isn’t really the correct term here, but I don’t know a better one—“re-arranging”?). I wonder whether, as a rule, it’s easier to change between some tunings than others, while still keeping most of the same flavor of a song.
I’m guessing, for example, that it would be easier to change a song from one wahine tuning to another, as opposed to taking, say, a G-Wahine version of “Punahele” and trying to render it in Taro Patch.
I’m guessing, but I don’t know. Can anyone here (anyone who’s still here in the Patch and not at camp) give me a rule or guideline on this subject, or even just a word of wisdom based on experience?
Thanks.
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2007 : 1:59:13 PM
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Congrats on finding your own arrangement, Mike!
Here's what I've found:
Moving between certain families of tunings is a piece of cake... sorta. Like so:
Melodies, double stops and chord forms in Keola's C and F wahine are very similar. In F, you are on the top three strings, in C move the forms down to strings 2, 3 and 4. The basses will change, 'natch.
Same goes for Taropatch and D major. Stuff played on the top 3 strings winds up on 2, 3 & 4 in D. Ditto with the change in the bass: you can't really keep up the root/fifth bass in D maj tuning.
Some other tunings are closly related, too -- like Cmaj and Bb maj. And there's a Bb tuning that is almost exactly the same as Keola's C, save for where the tonic falls in the bass. That ones in the book he and I did.
Going from Keola's C to Drop C, or vice versa, pretty much just means being aware of what's happening on the 1st string. Going from TaroPatch to Drop C is simply a matter of, well, transposing. Or not. The cool thing is how easy it is to play in two different keys in both taropatch and drop C.
So some wahine tunings are very similar. but I've found D wahine and double slack (G wahine) to be pretty much unique in terms of how a melody will fall on the open and stopped strings.
Of course, it's pretty easy to play a taropatch riff in double slack, as long as you watch what you are doing on the third string.
Not sure if that answers your question... But one of the best ways to make a tune your own is to wrangle it into a different tuning.
Mark
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2007 : 2:32:47 PM
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Thanks, Mark. Never thought of myself as a wrangler before.
Yes, you exactly answered my question, and a couple of others that had been nagging me.
For example, how the first piece in your online book (in D major tuning) seemed so foreign to my taropatch fingers at first, but quickly felt more familiar. And how some songs in taropatch or in Drop C switch between passages in key of G and in key of C (I think I hear George Kahumoku doing this sometimes). I don't know D wahine, but will dig up a recording and see if I can tell if it sounds similar to "double-slack" to my ears.
Glad I asked while you were still around to answer. There's no wi-fi in the tentalows, I imagine. |
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Karl Monetti
`Olu`olu
USA
756 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2007 : 5:27:31 PM
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Mike
George K actually tunes to taropatch but down a whole step to F. He plays a lot of stuff in B and C out of that tuning, then capos for anything in G, where he can also play in C.
The same relationships of strings 2,3,4,5,6 in D and 1,2,3,4,5 in G also work for strings 1,2,3 and 4 in open C (CGCGCE)
There's no wi-fi in teh tentalows, but plenty of microscopic ants! They all but walked away with a bag of mixed nuts I had. |
Karl
Frozen North |
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2007 : 7:23:03 PM
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Hey, Karl--
Yeah, I know about the Taro Patch F thing. Found out I like singing in that tuning but like playing in G, even though the intervals are all the same. Go figure.
George held a two hour workshop here and I showed up all nicely tuned to G. Once he told us about his tuning, I was trying frantically to re-tune to TP F with my beginner fingers when George graciously picked up my guitar and -- zap/whiz/bang --in 30 seconds it was in Taropatch F.
Gotta learn how to do that.
I got lost when he went to B and C--fingers not fast enough yet. |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 07:45:03 AM
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I was lucky enough to sit down with our resident "music professor" and slack key player extraordinaire, Peter Medeiros, last month  and one of the specific subjects (but a major theme of his methodology) was SCORDATURA !!!  
OK, so I can be accused of throwing big LATIN words around just to scare people . . . . but really this is just the ability to take one's knowledge of one tuning (or instrument) and apply it to another tuning (or instrument). Or the musical term, for example, for a guitar player's ability to quickly learn and play an ukulele.
If you really get to know your Open/Closed and Even/Closed positions in one tuning, all kinds of possibilities are created when you apply those positions in a new tuning or on a new stringed instrument, or even a different set of strings in the same tuning.
I'm just learning this as well, so I'll leave it to Peter to chime in and explain it better when he has a chance. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 09:00:14 AM
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quote:
Or the musical term, for example, for a guitar player's ability to quickly learn and play an ukulele.
I always thought that was called "faking it."
BTW: Here's a little session musician's studio trick:
If you ever need to play an unfamiliar instrument like mando, ud, bazouki etc, for a session, simply tune it like a guitar. No one need ever know..... |
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 10:18:28 AM
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I feel way classier knowing that I’m engaging in Scordatura. I thought I was just switching notes around.
But on the subject of musical terminology, please allow me this very basic question:
I understand Open/Closed positions as pairs of notes a sixth apart, played on pairs of strings (as on third and first strings in taropatch: 12/14, 11/12, 9/10, 7/9, etc.). The positions or strings may change in another tuning, creating new possibilities, as Mika ele says.
So, Mika ele, what is “Even/Closed”? I can’t find the meaning in any reference I have. Maybe it’s something I’m already doing but didn’t know the name for.
And Mark, when you mention “double stops,” is that the same thing?
Sorry for asking something everybody else probably already knows.
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 10:49:44 AM
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"Double stops" means that you are playing two notes on two different strings.
Please note that a lot of us toss around musical terms which may or may not have universal meanings. So one persons "open/closed" may mean something completely different to someone else.
Like what Ozzie calls an "add-on" in his book I call a "hammer-on."
BTW: I've never heard the term scodatura to refer to the act of playing or arranging in a different tuning, rather it simply means "an altered tuning." On the other hand, I never studied music formally, so what do I know? |
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 11:52:48 AM
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On the other hand, I never studied music formally, so what do I know?
Quite a lot, obviously. Thanks for the definitions.
I'm all in favor of tossing around musical terms when I can just say that I have my own personal definition--especially the foreign ones.
And I asked Google to please translate "scordatura" from Italian and give me the English. It gave me, of course, "scordatura." Thanks, Google. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 12:47:59 PM
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And I asked Google to please translate "scordatura" from Italian and give me the English. It gave me, of course, "scordatura." Thanks, Google.
It translates as "mis-tune." At least according to Wikipedia. And of course they are never wrong.
We need to take nominations for Miss Tune 2007. Or, perhaps, Ms Tune. |
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nahenahe
Aloha
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 2:32:55 PM
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Mike,
"Open" means the left-hand fingering for a particular chord spans at least 3 frets, with at least one of the "middle" frets unfretted. An example in Taro Patch G is the pointer finger on the 3rd string (from the high D), 7th fret, and the ring (or pinky) finger on the 1st string, 9th fret. The open fret here is the 8th.
"Closed" means the fingering involves 2 adjacent frets. An example is the pointer finger on the 3rd string, 11th fret, and the ring finger on the 1st string, 12th fret.
Uncle Peter was the first person I'd heard the "closed" terminology from. It refers to 2 fretted strings being played on the same fret (though those 2 strings need not be adjacent to one another). An example is a 1/3 barre (top 2 strings) on the 5th fret (a parallel third in Taro Patch G).
Tim |
Tim Dang
Sunnyvale, CA |
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 7:19:49 PM
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Thanks, Tim.
I think I still make the mistake of looking at everything from a taropatch point of view, but I'm learning to broaden my horizons.
What I gather from all the above is that these terms in general refer to pairs of notes (not 3- or 4-note chords) fingered on different strings up and down the fretboard, with the terms denoting how far apart the frets are on the two strings (same fret, adjacent frets, or a span of three frets). The interval between the two notes doesn't have to be a sixth, but could also be a third, as in your example.
The fingering for a particular interval may change between tunings and may also change with different pairs of strings in the same tuning.
Got it.
I guess in the end that the terminology doesn't matter all that much, as long as I know how to finger the notes. But it does help to keep things clear when we're discussing some of these topics in print on this board and not "live."
Ozzie deals with open/closed positions on 1st and 3rd strings in taropatch very early in his book (page 8) and I think I was introduced to it in my very first slack key lesson (thank you). I've ordered Ozzie's DVD, so I'll be interested to see how he deals with the subject in real time on video. |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 07:37:14 AM
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Mike,
I'll quote this from Peter's Methodology Book (not yet published).
quote:
1. If any pair of strings uses open positions the closed positions will be the compliment.
2. If any pair of strings uses even positions the closed positions will be the compliment.
OK, so what does that mean? The open/closed/even positions are two-finger/two-note chords on two strings. When the fret span between the fingers are on the same fret (span=0 frets), it is the even position. When the fret span is on adjacent frets (span=1 fret), it is a closed position. When the span between fingers leaves a fret unused in between (span=2 frets), it is an open position.
Here are examples you can relate to in G Taropatch.
A. On the 1 and 3 strings (numbered from highest to lowest sounding string), the positions are open/closed and the notes are a sixth interval above (or a third interval below):
_Chord:-C-D7-G-D7-G-C-D7-C
String 1: 2-4-5-7-9-10-12-14
String 2:
String 3: 0-2-4-5-7-9--10-12
Position: O-O-C-O-O-C--C-O *
(*notice the sequence of open (O) and closed (C) positions)
B. On the 1 and 2 strings (numbered from highest to lowest sounding string), the positions are even/closed and the notes are a third interval above (or a sixth interval below):
_Chord:-G-C-D7-C-D7-G-D7-G
String 1: 0-2-4-5-7-9-10-12
String 2: 0-1-3-5-7-8-10-12
Position: E-C-C-E-E-C-E--E *
(* notice the sequence of even (E) and closed (C) positions)
Using two fingers and a bass note you can play the major chords in Hawaiian Songs structure, the I Chord (G major), the IV Chord (C Major), and the V Chord (D7th).
The really nifty part is to note where the root chords (I Chord) of this tuning are (G Major Chord) in the O/C and E/C position pattern and apply the same patterns to a different pair of strings or to a different tuning -- aha insight!
You might notice that the top four strings (1-4) in G Major (Taro Patch DGDGBD) tuning have the same patterns as the 2-5 strings in Open D (DADFAD). Or, the top four strings of a guitar in standard tuning (EADGBE) have the same patterns as the four strings of an ukulele (GCEA) == SCORDATURA!!!
Some slack key players call this the "Ins and Outs" of a tuning. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 1:58:34 PM
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Mika ele, thanks for the insight into the ins and outs, and for the quote from Peter.
Got any "insight" into the time horizon on his book? |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 3:19:43 PM
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| When I talked to Peter a few weeks ago, he said the book is in "peer review". I'm not sure what that means for publishing timeline. I can tell you from my review (although I am not in the same league to be considered a peer) that it is an outstanding book. The part that impresses me most; the more I study the text and the songs, the more I can tell how much work went into this book and the more I think I understand some of those things I have been trying to do for so long -- like improvisation, putting the tablature away and playing, playing and singing at the same time (very difficult), and playing the same song in a different tuning. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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