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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
 Posted - 12/20/2002 : 02:28:39 AM
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I know a few people have mentioned annoying string squeaks caused by awkward patterns or just poor technique, but I was wondering what people thought of leaving them in recordings.
I dug out Keola's "E Ku'u Morning Dew" (on Slack Key Guitar Masters I) because some had mentioned it as their favorite song. It's beautiful.
There's several loud hand squeaks through the song, which sounds like it was acoustically miked from 3 or more feet away and sounds very "live." I think you can even hear his shirt or skin rustling against the body of the guitar as he moves. I don't really notice most of the squeaks, but there's a couple that just kind of stop the flow of the song for me.
Anyone else? Would anyone else take out something like that, especially in a quiet section? Is it a taboo to suggest it? Please don't think I would want to sanitize a recording until it sounded like some waterfall-and-mediation shlock you buy at a kiosk at the mall.
Disclaimer: I'm not really a student of slack key, just a three-chorder. In taropatch tuning, I'm a two-fingerer.
Jesse Tinsley
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Julie H
Ha`aha`a
USA
1206 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 03:04:31 AM
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| Funny thing, I had been thinking about just this very thing as I was listening to one of uncle Ray's CD's and distinctly heard his breathing. On the one hand, I was wondering why this wasn't "cleaned up", then on the other hand I realized that this was a real human being playing and human beings make funny little sounds like breathing. Then I go to work and deal with "dead" things like computers, and I sit back and think about how I enjoy the sound of breathing. Somehow it touched we to hear the sweet sounds of uncle Ray. Realizing he may not be breathing for much longer, it makes it especially precious. Hurray for human noises! Aloha nui, Julie |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 03:48:42 AM
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Something I found does help a bit for squeaks are Elixir Nano-web
guitar strings. Not the regular strings but the Nano-web. They are totally different animals from the originals. The originals were plastic coated feeling and dull. These arent. I like em anyway.
Julie..........you two okay over there. I've got a canoe I'm not using. You could paddle down to Henflings.
I'm at work rite now. Work rocks. Its dry, warm, and has this electrical power thing goin on ! I'm liking it here.
best wishes
Mike |
my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 04:00:40 AM
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I really dislike intrusive string squeaks, including those I make  . During a performance, they may be noticed and then forgotten as the music continues, and I am caught up in the flow of the music (although I don't remember hearing any squeaks from Led Ka'apana). Listening to a CD is a different experience. I'll play a CD over and over, and it doesn't take long to be aware of the flaws, learn where they occur, and then brace myself for them each time they come round. Well, if they are really intrusive I do. A CD without the intrusive squeaks is much more pleasant to me whether they never occurred, required multiple takes, or were removed after the fact.
Other noises, like bumps, breathing, or ringing phones (really, a home recording) shouldn't be on a recording if they are distracting. But, like Julie said, they are human sounds. Sometimes the human sounds add to my enjoyment. Sometimes not.
It's a kindness if a performer uses flat-wound strings or Elixers to reduce squeaks. |
Pauline |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 1:27:20 PM
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Check your local guitar store for GHS Fast Fret if the squeaking really bothers you. It's a spray that goes on your strings (it also conditions your fretboard) before and after you play. It not only reduces string noise but also extends the life of your strings. I've used it and like it.
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Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 2:32:02 PM
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Craig,
My recollection is that the Fast Fret spray had silicones in it. If it still does, I wouldn't recommend it - does bad things to nitro finishes. And, silicone also makes it nearly impossible to refinish a guitar (or car, or whatever). If you have a polyurethane finish, it won't hurt it.
About string squeaks: This is one of those perennial topics that come up in general guitar newsgroups, like rmmga. It is a De Gustibus... kinda thang. The majority usually doesn't mind it or think that it is simply part of the humanity of it all. I am with that group, as is jwn. Those who don't like squeaks are usually from 2 camps: those who really like controlled (maybe manipulated) studio recordings and those who are from the "classical" world. For the latter, the 3 treble strings (unwound) on a "clasical" guitar don't squeak, unless you are doing something real bad. Even I don't squeak playing my "classical". Second, they are taught, over a period of many years, not to squeak on *any* string. Squeaks are not "as written" by the composer :-) and there is a veneration for the composed notes. Sarah and I recently went to a recital by Ben Verdery, who is the head of the guitar program at the Yale School of Music. He played *all* sorts of music (Ravi Shankar's ragas, ultramodern pieces with loops and delays, his own etudes, a little Bach and Schubert, etc.) on his "classicals" and,for 2 hours, he never made a noise that wasn't written - with his eyes on the page all the time. He just knew exactly where everything was on his guitar without seeming even to care about it - the music just came out. That takes, not only talent and decades of work, but a particular kind of aesthetic.
Anyway, it ain't a bad thing unless you think it is a bad thing. And then, who can argue with you?
...Reid |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 2:51:05 PM
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hmmmm, I was gone?
Actually, I'm of two minds on squeeks. Yep, they are a real part of guitar playing, along with the thumps and bumps and breaths and chair noises. And some other stuff that show up from some of the more esoteric mic'ing practices. Like the one where you thread a mic between the player's legs to capture the sound coming off the back of the guitar....
However, I'm in favor of minmizing the dang things. Which can be done a couple of different ways, depending. The studio standard use to be to punch -in and fix just the section with the noise. Tedious? You bet. Particularly with analog. I've sat in the guitar chair while the engineer fixed squeeks this way and it's crazy making...
Some folks run the track through a de-esser -- essentially a compressor keyed to a specific frequency -- as it goes to tape. The squeek triggers the compressor, which momentarily lowers the gain. It'll do in a pinch, but it sounds phony to my ears.
If you've got a digital workstation, you can go in and select each and every squeek, drop the gain, re-EQ, and make it less in-your-face. Also tedious. But this is what I do -- the vibe is still there, but the squeeks are less annoying.
Incidentally, ya can't do any of these tricks if you record with effects. So keep those tracks dry!
Oh, and I second the vote on Elixers. Although I like the originals, too. The slight attenuation of the highs actually sounds good to me -- kinda like how strings used to sound on that magic moment when they very finally broken in but hadn't lost it yet. Which lasted all of six minutes, mostly.
Now Keola likes his squeeks. If you've heard "Island Born," or seen him live lately, you'll hear that he uses them as an expressive device for "Makee Island." (There are some other weirdly wonderful little guitarisms on "Island Born," too. Like the plinky - string percussion effect. I'll leave it to you to find it....)
I hope this helps you squeek by in your recording efforts. nyuk, nyuk.
Happy playing!
Mark |
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Turtle Song
Aloha
47 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 4:45:16 PM
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I have to agree with Julie, I love the human touch. It's the heart of aloha that draws me to Slack Key, and that's a beating human heart.
Hey, Doug and Sandy, tell the story you told me about the time they wanted to take some noise off of one of your recordings. Remember?
Hee hee. |
The seeds for the flowering of our personal peace are within our hopeful, but fragmented, selves. Reflection and silence compose the winds that nurture our simplicity that is the essence of beauty. - Frank Howell
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 5:00:08 PM
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I jumped in on the last sqeaky discussion so I will do so again. Squeaking, as is clearly indicated by earlier posts, is a matter of taste. I do not like to squeak much when I am playing and neither does my primary guitar teacher (Mark Hansen). Some of my heros like Doc Watson, Leo Kottke, John Fahey and Led Kaapana (to name a few) did not like to produce squeaks on most tunes either. You CAN learn to squeak less but it takes careful technique. Reducing the pressure during slides will reduce squeak amplitude but too much pressure reduction will buzz and or damp the sound (as we probably all know). It is easy to argue that some tunes probably sound better with some squeaking. Most slides that I do which result in squeaking are on the highest three strings. The two highest strings don't squeak because they are solid so that leaves the third. I use a solid third of 0.024 to 0.026 gauge which eliminates most squeaking. The bass strings, even though they are wound, do not seem to squeak very often for me.
Hint: If you use Cool Edit Pro and select just the squeak and then use the "remove single pop" button on the Pop and Scratch filter it will reduce the squeak dramatically (30 to 60 db) with very little audible effect on the rest of the sound. It achieves this by doing an FFT comparison of the sound on either side of the squeak and then just removing the stuff that is different (the squeak). I was going to do this to Andy's NJ Slack-Key and send it back to him (just to show what can be done), but have not had the spare time yet. Of course this is after-the-fact squeak removal and would be considered "cheating" by a purist. Other sound Editors that use FFT-based pop and scratch removal tools would probably do as good a job as CEP for squeak removal.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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wdf
Ha`aha`a
USA
1153 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2002 : 6:38:01 PM
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I have to side with Mark here. I used to produce a LOT of squeaks. I had always used John Pearse strings. Once I switched to Elixer polys the squeaks disappeared. I find the sound of the polywebs to be very mellow and pleasing. They also make it easier to play slides.
When I play other guitars with uncoated strings it feels like the strings are corroded or as if I have something sticky on my fingers - not a pleasant experience. My Taylor came with Elixer polywebs as did my Rainsong.
On the other hand I've never heard squeaking on a Clarence White recording (he passed on in 1973 - prior to coated strings). So some control resides in the guitarist. |
Dusty |
Edited by - wdf on 12/20/2002 6:39:27 PM |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2002 : 12:11:43 AM
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All very cool replies to my inane question. You guys rock! ...or whatever slack key-ers do!
Jesse Tinsley
Slackin' in Idaho |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2002 : 02:50:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hapakid
You guys rock! ...or whatever slack key-ers do!
We rule (with a gentle hand and a lot of aloha). |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 12/21/2002 02:52:15 AM |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2002 : 04:03:33 AM
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| I rock |
my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2002 : 8:21:25 PM
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I roll... like a bowl full of jelly.
A-lo-ho-ho-ho-a!
Mark |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2002 : 1:40:09 PM
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I usually just sit and drool...
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2003 : 2:13:21 PM
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Back to squeaks, the biggest slack key culprit for playing noises I've ever heard is the version of "Hula Blues" on Sonny Chillingworth's "Endlessly". Since this album was release posthumously, and since the playing noises are so intrusive that they detract from the song at times, I suspect that this particular track may not have been one Sonny intended for release as is. (And I'm surprised Dancing Cat didn't clean it up before releasing it.) Nevertheless, it's still an awesome rendition of a great song.
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Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
Edited by - cpatch on 01/09/2003 7:31:49 PM |
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