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John
`Olu`olu
656 Posts |
 Posted - 12/31/2002 : 3:31:12 PM
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Edited by - John on 06/27/2003 4:15:45 PM |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 5:42:12 PM
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I learn by tab, but only after listening to the song until I know what I'm attempting to play. In other words, I listen to a song until I know it fairly well, then I start learning how to play it using tab. I learn it one section at a time (slowly) until I have the whole thing memorized, then I practice from memory until I can play it through at speed. Some songs I learn faster than others...I don't have the greatest memory in the world.
It's difficult for me to learn by watching someone else play unless they're very, very patient or unless I can sit beside them instead of in front of them...I have a hard turning things around in my mind in order to figure out the fingering. (I wonder if it would be easier with a left-handed player, since it would be like sitting in front of a mirror.)
As far as learning by ear is concerned, forget it...about the only learning by ear I'm capable of is hearing my mistakes and correcting them! I CAN figure out a melody line by ear given enough time, but am no good with chords.
On songs that I don't have tab for, I have a computer application called Transcribe, which not only lets you slow songs way down, but also can be helpful determining which notes are being played and also note durations. I haven't used it extensively yet, because for me it's still a painfully slow process, but I have tabbed out a few sections of songs using Transcribe. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 8:44:11 PM
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Craig, Are you the person who posted about Transcribe? If so, thanks. Normally, I rely on tabs plus CDs to get the rhythm. I know, the rhythm is there in the standard score in a lot of books, but that's easier for me to pick up by ear.
Like Craig, I can pick up the melody by ear, too, but combining it with bass notes and chords is more than these ears can handle. I think it comes with time and practice, but not yet for me. I don't have any slack key music memorized yet, and when I try to play with anyone else, once I get off, I'm lost. I know, more practice and more study.
I am using Transcribe to figure out Steven Espaniola's version of "E Ku'u Morning Dew". His fills on an electric uke are very different than, I think it's Keola Beamer's version on guitar. Espaniola is doing arpeggios for fill, but it's not obvious what the notes/chords are. I'm using Transcribe to write down tab, so again, it's tab. Until I used Transcribe, I didn't realize that what he did was really fairly simple; it sounded a lot more complex. It may get more complex further into the song, too.
Watching someone? Only if they go very, very, slowly and almost place my fingers for me. Once again, that depends on how many pieces of the toolkit you've learned. If they'll kindly stay in first postion chords, I can sort of follow along while someone plays in standard tuning, but I don't know slack key chords. Yes, I have some charts, but it's not the same as using them. However, I'm hoping to learn a bunch from a slack key ukulele book I'm working with. I'll have to relearn their names, D's turn into G's, or is it vice versa?, but the chord shapes stay the same.
And then comes a tuning other than Taro Patch and it's back to square one. Uff da.
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wdf
Ha`aha`a
USA
1153 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 8:54:06 PM
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I have learned songs from a combo of tab and listening to recordings of the tab. I try to break away from the tab as soon as possible and as a result my versions differ (sometimes significantly) from the tabbed version. After I have the song memorized, I try to make changes to make it my own.
I have also learned from watching someone play and taping them - then mimic what I remember seeing and what I hear on the tape. Again my version usually differs a lot from the model. |
Dusty |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 12:57:51 AM
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I cannot believe it's 2003! Happy New Year everyone!
In looking at the songs that I can play, it's almost all from tab. There is really only a song or two that I picked out from listening to CDs.
Just to give you some background info. I started playing guitar the summer after graduating from high school. Took 3-4 lessons that summer and learned open chords and the pentatonic scale. Just got to the idea of barre chords when I left for college. In college, I lived on the same hall with a guitarist who could play (lots of REM) and a guy ready to sing punk/hardcore. With barely any practice, we played a battle of the bands (with me on drums) with the goal of being the wieners instead of the winners. We definitely won as weiners and almost won the battle at least as crowd favorites. The judges just could not find it in themselves to award the title to such a bunch of idiots who told more jokes than number of songs played. By sophmore year, I transitioned to guitar, the former guitarist to bass, vocals stayed the same and we found a freshman who could play drums better and louder than anyone we had ever seen. We played for a total of 3.5 years and I learned a lot playing with guys who played better than me. That was great fun. We played mostly originals which was unheard of on our campus (way too many cover bands).
Jump forward about 5 years and I was trying to learn slack key, a 180 degree turn from my punk/hardcore/ska days. Open tunings were pretty much a mystery to me with the exception of an occasional drop D tuning (if Helmet or Soundgarden means anything to anyone here.) Where I could listen to the radio and pick out the chords or watch some one and see what chords they were strumming, finger picking was a different world. Tab was my only hope. It began demystifying things for me - especially Ozzie's book.
Now I feel that I have a better foundation, I think I could learn a tremendous amount from watching others play and playing with others. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of slackers in NJ for me to test this theory.
Did I answer any of jwn's questions? Before writing a book here, let me conclude by saying that I learn from tabs. I hate learning this way. I find it boring and tedious which is why it might take months to sit down with a single song of tabs and learn it from start to finish. Sure it gets easier over time, but I want to play not sit down learning measure by measure. When I learn a new concept or riff from the tabs - now I can go play and have fun. Man, I hope I'm not this wordy in all of 2003!
Andy
Ps. I'm so glad new people are posting. More people = more ideas, more experiences and that is very cool. Nice work jwn and indy! |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 01:03:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Pauline Leland
Craig, Are you the person who posted about Transcribe? If so, thanks.
You're welcome (yes, it was me)! It's a great program, isn't it? I've also used it to slow a song WAY down and save the slowed-down version to a file (using Tools->Record to File) that I can then burn to a CD or put on my MP3 player. This has been especially helpful with Mark Hanson's book, where even the slower versions of the songs on the book's CD aren't slow enough for me.
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Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 01:16:27 AM
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Craig, that's right, you mentioned that. I'll have to remember it. I'm trying now to get another phrase or two of SE's down.
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Pauline |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 1:54:36 PM
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quote:
Are you a "pro" (I wish I could get Daniel Ho to jump in here)?
Yeah, me too. Daniel?!?! BTW, Daniel Ho registered here twice, but we're patiently awaiting his first post. "I double dog dare ya!" Anyone watch A Christmas Story marathon last week?  |
Andy |
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ohanabrown
Lokahi
281 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 6:59:29 PM
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Aloha JWN,
Im not sure if your meaning the kanikapila
group from Waihee, or another group somewhere else.
But for us on Maui? We get together every Saturdays. We gather in a circle and someone will start it off, The rest will play rhythm.
After the person that started first, He will call on one of us in the circle, And then that person will do the lead and pass it over to the next. Before the song is done, Everyone had a chance to do there own leads.
That way everyone is playing, not just one person doing everything. If your not comfortable then you pass it on to the next person.
This way, It'll get you to keep up with everyone and before you know it, there are skills that your playing, That you never thought you could do.
I think playing with others helps you to push yourself to another level.
Even if theres a beginer in the circle? everyone will help the person along. What we Don't Do Is.....try to make others feel that we are better then them. We all play as ONE OHANA.
Know one gets left out.... And i think that is why everyone comes every week!
Hey Keith sorry i missed you, I heard you came to the jam sessions at Waihee. I jus got back from Tahiti and looking forward to seeing everyone on Saturday.
a hui hou!
Kevin
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Kevin K. Brown |
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edkalama
Akahai
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 2:59:43 PM
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Have you heard of Do Re Me Fa Sol? If not, you are too young or you haven't seen the movie "Sounds of Music" with Julie Andrews.
Long time ago and I mean very long time ago, (at 6 years old) my piano teacher started my first few sessions with the sounds of Do Re Me Fa Sol La Ti Do. Back then they did not call the notes CDEFGABC. We would sing melodies in Do Re Me Fa Sol for hours. Then he showed me where the "Do Re Me Fa Sol" sounds are on the piano keyboard and began playing the melodies on the piano, instead of singing them. This went on for a while before we even began the real lessons on reading the real music stuff.
I got very good at the Do Re Me Fa Sol concept that I can actually sing any song (that I am familiar with) in DoReMeFaSol and because I knew where these sounds are in the piano keyboard, I would just go ahead and play them. As I started to learn more instruments - ukulele, guitar, harmonica, trumpet, flute, etc. I simply find out first where DoReMeFaSol are in these instruments. And that, my friends, is my "play-by-ear" approach, compliments of my mean and ugly piano teacher. (He used to hit my fingers with a stick when I make a mistake until my Dad found out about it and almost beat the crap out of him)
I went on to apply the same concept on slack key. I only refer to tabs if I cannot match the correct sounds as played. Basically, I would listen to a melody, hum it in DoReMeFaSol and then I'd go on and see if I can match the chords. The rest is practice, practice, and practice. I also make sure that each time I practice/play, I would include some arrangements that require some fast fingers. The ones I'm already good at, I would also try to play them as fast as I can as part of the practice session. This way you get better over time. |
ed
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kihoalukid
Lokahi
USA
289 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2003 : 9:02:55 PM
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for me, if the tabs available, ill go for that everytime, rather than try and figure it out by ear (yea, im lazy,and dont have the time id like to spend on it all). i rarely ever start from the beginning of the piece and work my way orderly through the song, i always pick out my favorite phrases (which are usually the most difficult) and learn them first,once i have the hard parts out of the way, hopefully the rest is all downhill.
when theres no tab avail, i have an akai "riff o matic", a digital phrase sampler that slows things down. this tends to get more tedious than i like but for faster stuff thats about the only way i can comprehend whats going on, and even then often im still scratching my head haha.
as for watching, i dont know anyone else that plays slack key so videos are the only way to "watch and learn" for me, i probaby use this method the least. |
Lee |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 12:39:26 AM
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I write my own....
Play it differently every time....
And never let anyone tell me I aint playing it right....
works every time |
my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 2:46:24 PM
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Hi folks - just got back from Christmas in Chicago to see this thread, so here's my story:
My background: Started to play off Keola's video -- my first experience on guitar. What a mess. Went to an Ozzie concert and spoke with him afterward. Flow to Hawaii and took a hald day with Ozzie to get basics. Since then I've studied 1:1 for a long time with George Kaumoku. I lost count but I guess I've been playing guitar/slack key for about 3 or 3 1/2 years. I only play Taro Patch as of yet.
I don't sing, so melody is very important for me. Rhythm guitar is definitely not my interest. I also have absolutely no problem with the idea of playing from staff or TAB -- memory is not a musical skill -- the key is knowing the piece well enough to be able to play with feeling. Finally, I'm too cantakerous to be happy playing other people's arrangements, except occasionally. I go to workshops more for ideas I can use than to get arrangements. (I have to admoit that I am very partial to Keola and to Ozzie and I will learn and play anything by them I can get my hands on. It's just that I usually don't keep playing it without somehow making enough changes in it to be "mine.") For me part of the "fun" is trying to work out an arrangement. (I suppose in a past life I thought the Inquisition was fun.)
How I learn: First of all, I almost always get the melody down in my mind. Lots of humming and whistling. I'm trying to learn solfege (Do-Re-Mi) but I'm not spending enough time to get good at it.) I try to get an overall sense of the structure of the song -- how is it repeating, developing, etc. I prefer to have a TAB, but mostly I have to go from a recording.
If I have a TAB in front of me, I look over the whole piece to get a sense of the overall structure, then very slowly play it all through at least once. Then I do section by section, usually starting at the back. That way I always "play into" something I know -- reinforcing in itself, helps memorization AND less problems when playing for someone and knowing the front end but falling appart towards the end.
When I don't have notes or TAB, after I have the melody down, I try to put it on the fretboard. If necessary, I use a Sabine "sampler" that slows the original down.) Unless it is very easy, it takes some experimenting to get it placed in the best positions. Sometimes I work on the chords as I'm doing the melody, but most often I fill in the chords after I get the melody down. I write out in my own form of TAB the notes, chords if necessary, and a notation that gives me note and rhythm values. When I'm really stuck I take the piece to George for help. SAometimes when I'm lazy I rely too much on George.
In general, when I have the basic piece down, i.e. melody line and simple chords supporting them, I take the piece over to George to make sure I'm getting it right. Often George fills in information about the piece. We then go over it so I can get a better sense of the words/melody to interpret the piece better. After that it may take anywhere from a week to many many months to get my arrangement. Lots of times I pick up the piece, play the basic and just start to jam on it. If I get something good, I jot it down. A lot of times letting it "sit there" helps the unconscious to work on it and when I pick it up again I might get some good stuff.
I think that sums it up, but I'm sure soon as I post this I'll think of something else.
Right now I go work on my contribution to the CD, a version of Ku'u Lei Awapuhi.
Raymond
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rossasaurus
Lokahi
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 4:27:07 PM
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Great discussion!
I started with a book only, and that held my interest until I could get to a workshop. Ok, in the workshop I realized that, maybe, I could actually play this stuff some day!
I tried the online format with Keola once, but since I'm on a slow dial-up, it was kinda choppy. It seemed like a useful system though, especially if you don't have a nearby teacher and you have DSL.
I still am using the various books, but I find if I don't like the sound of a particular song, I just can't force my way through, even if i know there's stuff in there to help me.
The videos are mostly too hard for me to follow at this point, but will probably become more useful as I progress(I hope).
My one-on-one time with a teacher has been really great. Nothing like having someone see just what might help you at that point and offering something to build that skill. I've been going for an hour weekly, and though it's a 1.5 hour drive each way, it's well worth it. I just reduced to every other week actually; driving's worn me down some.
Craig, I like that Transcribe tool; how it can show you which string in whch fret is being played in a phrase; pretty cool. For the at-pitch slow-down function though, I think Amazing Slow Downer has a much better user interface; easier to use. It's for Mac at least, not sure about PC version.
It's been pretty easy for me to let go of tab once I get a song, but I DO find that I'll often play it the same way each time, mostly. I guess that'll change as I learn more licks and get comfortable. I've only been at it a year overall, so I won't be too hard on myself.
Oh yeah, what helped me with my lessons was getting a DIGITAL recorder, a minidisc. I was using a cassette recorder, but I couldn't make-out all the strings due to the tape hiss. Once I got the MD, I could hear so much more and more clearly. It became easier to "decode" a song. It's also less fatiguing to listen to than a cassette.
Ross |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 6:56:41 PM
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I knew I would forget something ....
One big step in my learning a song is that I try to listen to as many versions of the song as I can. I know this may sound compulsive, but it is much less so than it seems: I have about 4,000 "cuts" of Hawaiian music, slack key and other performers/groups that I like. About a year ago I paid a kid to list them in a Data Base in Excell. Now when I get a new album, I type in the song titles, album title and artist. When I want to learn a song I do a sort and typically burn a CD of the different arrangements. I usually listen to these once or twice a day for a few days, then put them aside for a while. Then I pick up my "lead sheet" (melody and chords) and start to play around. There are times when I use a lick here or there from someone else. Most of the time I am too inept to actually transcribe it correctly, so its half someone else's lick, half mine.
Raymond
San Jose |
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kahili
Aloha
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 01:19:37 AM
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Aloha Kakou
I just wanted to say hi to everyone. It's good to see that slack key is doing well.
I grew up on the west side of Oahu, there was always a jam session on the beach. We would share smokes, drinks and songs. This was the 60's and 70's.ha!ha! Guys were playing g taro patch, g wahine and c tuning. Mainly I would watch and listen. It wasn't till the 70's that slack key really took off for me, I was able to afford a Guitar. Hearing Leonard Kwan's Slack Key Album did me in with opihi moemoe. I have since learned the chord positions for the different tunings that I play, now it's easy for me to get the melody down. Then I only have to work on the bass rhythm. I was taught to play songs with your feelings. That being said the songs are played differently every time. Whatever method we use to learn a song we need to learn our chords, techniques slides, hammer-ons etc. and if it sounds good to you, hiki no!
Kahili
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