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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
 Posted - 10/10/2007 : 11:24:30 AM
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Fran, et al -
Thanks for the clarification. I know Bob Katz's stuff is pretty techie -- but there are gems to be had if one takes the time to read what he has to say. The one I linked to is just one of many that mentions normalization.
In fact, it appears he's deleted an earlier articale that dealt extensively with normalization, dither and sample rate conversion. He's agin it -- for the simple reason that one's tools won't be as good as those of a dedicated mastering engineer.
quote:
ALL I'M ASKING IS WHEN I MIX AND COMBINE MY SINGLE TRACKS INTO A 2 CHANNEL STEREO TRACK TO PUT INTO MY ITUNES TO BURN ACD THE RESULT IS A CD THAT IS TOO SOFT. SO WHEN I PUT IT IN MY MULTI DISC CHANGER IN THE CAR (YEAH I LISTEN TO MYSELF EVEN IF I HATE THE SOUND) I CRANK UP THE STEREO AND THEN THE NEXT CD IS A COMMERCIAL ONE AND I ALMOST BLOW OUT THE SPEAKERS.
That's why I pointed you to Bob Katz's site, Al. Take some time to read up on his mastering series. No, we can't all create the kind of listening environment he recommends; but we can learn the process. In essence, the reason store bought CDs sound louder is that the dynamic range is reduced (compressed) and then the overall level is increased.
The result? Everything sounds louder. That's why pop records look (and sound) like square waves. That's what Katz is talking about-- the whole rush to make CDs louder and louder, at the risk of making them sound like Fido's *ss, to quote my old studio partner.
There are other things going on, too -- including clever EQ tricks to accentuate certain frequncies and deamphisize others, so that, say, the guitar sound more transparent.
quote:
The limiter is the tool those guys use to make those commercial CDs so loud, so if you want to be as loud as them, you'll have to use the same tool.
That's partially true. Simply limiting a file will make it louder, after a fashion. But you won't be raising the overall energy to the same extent, as you're just cutting off the peaks while doing little to affect the balance. Quiet bits may still get lost, particularly in the usual home listening environment.
I'm not saying it's better, just that few commercial CDs will have been limited without any add'l processing.
What you are typically hearing is indeed compression -- though nowadays it can be pretty sophisticated multi bandwidth-type stuff, coupled with a peak limiter and, yes, a normalizing-type function. Also EQ, maybe some sub-harmonic synthesis and heavy-duty sample rate conversion and dithering. That's more or less what the TC Finalizer does.
Take a typical guitar track -- it is common to get a short burst of high energy when your fingernail hits the string -- or when you squeak. These transients (techie term) might be many dB hotter than the rest of the note. Now, say, that you also have a heavy thumb (like me) -- bass notes will be hotter than the little twinkly bits -- hammer-ons, etc.
OK, so if I apply a limiter to tame the transients, all I've done is made the track slightly hotter. But I've done nothing to make the hard-to-hear bits stand out. If I turn up the playback volume, the bass sounds too loud and the guitar is out of balance.
The idea behind compression is to change the overall dynamic range of the whole schmeer-- a very different kettle of fish. So, with subtle compression, I can smooth out the differences between the bass notes and the hammer-ons -- and make the whole track "louder" so when you play it softly, you can still hear everything.
The challenge is to do it in such a way that you preserve a pleasing spectrum of the original dynamic range. That's why the Dancing Cat CDs sound so good. So, Al (et al -- always wanted to say that): set yourself the test of making your guitar tracks sound like a Dancing Cat CD.
Try Fran's "by hand" limiting technique (tedious, but extremely effective.) Dig out some of EQ tools to shape the guitar a bit. I think you said you have DP - fire up the Masterworks Compressor and learn to use it.
The goal is to make your CD translate on a number of speakers. Just like the Big Dogs do.
Happy recording!
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2007 : 2:57:31 PM
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| I wuv yu guys. Thas wot I tlking about. People helping people. Mahalo Grande. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2007 : 08:02:49 AM
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One of the great things about this forum is that everyone has sumptin' to say. Once in a while it's nice to hear something we say is useful. Good luck to ya, Al.
quote:
The limiter is the tool those guys use to make those commercial CDs so loud, so if you want to be as loud as them, you'll have to use the same tool.
In fairness to Fran, I should mention that many folks do indeed apply a form of limiting as the very last stage in the process.
The Waves L1 Ultra Maximizer (I love techie names) totally changed the process when it first came out. It is kind of like a limiter on steroids -- you could use it to totally slam the track right up to digital zero, then apply extremely good dither and sample rate conversion.
There are numerous "mastering toolkits" that do much the same thing as the LI now, some better 'n others. Don't know what version the L1 is up to; I have the L2 and I always use it as the final stage of the recording process (after all the tracks are mixed, that is.)
So yeah, Fran is right about the limiting bit. Didn't want to give the impression that I was dissing him; rather that there's a bit more to the process of making yer CDs sound like the ones you buy.
cheers,
Mark
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 06:58:19 AM
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Since we are posting info about "finalizing" audio here is another link for a popular finalizing tool for the PC:
http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/guides.html
The basic steps outlined in this guide and the reasons for them are similar for most of the finalizing tools. It is good reading, even if you do not have the software as it gives some of the reasoning and theory behind each step. This is one of the tools I use and parts of it are built-in to Audition 2.X (in not as friendly a form).
The word "Mastering" (as Mr. Katz points out as well) is misused, it should only refer to the last step of "cutting" (which is usually done photographically for audio CD's, and by E-beam for DVD's) the CD duplication master. (I still misuse it too).
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 10/15/2007 07:06:31 AM |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 10:10:11 AM
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| I love Ozone...it's been my mastering tool of choice for some time now. (In fact I'm in the process of switching all my outboard processing to Ozone.) |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 1:58:50 PM
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| Craig, can you elaborate on the Ozone software, compared to other similar tools? |
Darin
http://www.hawaiiguitar.com/ |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2007 : 3:40:13 PM
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Darin, the easiest thing to do is read the guide Mark refers to:
http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/guides.html
In short, Ozone offers professional-level, high-resolution tools for all aspects of mastering. It comes with a variety of presets to get you started and gives you as much creative control as you want. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 09:32:32 AM
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| Well, Santa Claus brought Paul one of these thingies for Christmas. Do you only use the mics which came with the thingie or can you hook it up to others? It picks up all kinds of sound, like Paul scratching his chest hairs. Big instruction book for Paul to read. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 10:57:23 AM
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Wow ya go away for a while and upon returning theres a whole bunch of new stuff added in. I just want to add that when I record for the heck of it with my computer thru DP I set levels like the book says so most of it is usually similar to zero into 600 ohms. I look for red lines and I seem to just be on the cusp. The stuff still sounds soft when i play back. This is straight without limiting and compression and EQ. I know I don't know what I'm doing since there is also room characteristics and mike placement and all that other stuff. I just want something that is near a commercial cd level so when I'm riding in my car i don't get distracted with fiddling with the players volume while I'm tooling down the highway at 60 mph.
You guys are professional and I really like the advice. One thing I found is I can record others really well but I can't seem to record myself by myself all that well. The start and stop is a distraction and i think I get too mike conscious as well. In other words I try too hard when I record myself.
The H2 really opened up things for me though. I go to a gig and just turn it on and I can record non stop for 3 hours or more. Then I get to see where my weak spots are when I play back the recording. Good fun and I think I would not buy my own music if i had a choice. Is this a normal reaction? Again I may be too critical of my self.
Wanda the book is big but this is one time I think when the book should be read. There is an input for external mike and that would allow for a better proximity for recording so you can get around the empty room acoustics if you choose.
It seems that there is a lot of new stuff out there that might be worth looking into but I haven't mastered what i already have.
Thanks again to all the input. I learned something and I appreciate it. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 11:47:41 AM
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quote:
I just want something that is near a commercial cd level so when I'm riding in my car i don't get distracted with fiddling with the players volume while I'm tooling down the highway at 60 mph.
If you are comparing the volume of you material against many commercial CDs released in the LAST FEW years, then you should expect it to be MUCH quieter. This is a LOUDNESS WAR issue. Here is a good link to understand the issue:
http://turnmeup.org
If you attempt to match the levels of some of the more recent releases, you will destroy the dynamic qualities of your own material as well. (Of course, if you WANT to sound like a Punk, Grundge, or RAP band then by all means crank it up on the Master so you do not have to crank it up on the player).
This loudness is achieved by (1) Hard Limiting (as shown in the example video in the link above) and (2) by sophisticated look-ahead multiband compression. If you have the tools (like Audition, Ozone, ProTools or perhaps Reaper) you can use these techniques yourself.
In order to understand this issue you must be comfortable with thinking about sound levels in decibels. And now is the time to get comfortable with it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel
If you have read the links above, you will know that the standard way of measuring mastered loudness is to express the dynamic range of the material as the ratio of the peak level to the average RMS level of the material. (RMS means Root Mean Square and is the way to measure the POWER of the signal. Your household line voltage out of the wall socket is measured in RMS) The peak level is always Zero db on CDs and is usually zero db sine-wave (European standard) as opposed to zero db square wave (there is a 3db difference between the two methods)). Most decent DAW tools can measure these levels and report them to you. Some modern CD releases have this ratio at close to 6db (terribly squashed). Anything that has a 12db or greater ratio (for this kind of material) is pretty OK. More than 20 db (unless it is Classical music or some Jazz) is excessive and you should crank it up.
(EBU European Broadcast Union standard is 18db for most things, if I remember correctly)
What computer DAW tool are you using, if I am familiar with it, I can give you some hints so that you can crank up your levels, but Assuming your EQ balance is good then generally you will use: 1) Limiting 2) Compression and perhaps 3) more limiting! 
But, if you have read the Ozone guide (link above) you should already know this!
If you want you can send me an example, and I will crank it up and send it back to you (then I will tell you what I did), otherwise dive-in and start using some of these techniques on you own system. Most all DAW's have some sort of limiter function and compressors too. Just make sure to keep an original un-touched copy of the material, in case you destroy it!
Happy Smashing!
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 01/02/2008 12:27:15 PM |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 12:41:34 PM
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Hey Craig and Lawrence,
I picked up Ozone at your recommendation, and LOVE it. Thanks! |
Darin
http://www.hawaiiguitar.com/ |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 1:57:30 PM
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Well the latest generation recordings might be just too loud compared to other stuff. So I just have to be careful of what I put in my car's disk changer so i don't have to bounce around with the volume control. It is just my experience that my recordings had to be pumped up to 7 0r 8 on my car stereo to be heard so my question was whether my recordings were too soft and without compression or limiting how even if i set levels along the signal path as recommended I don't get decent levels when I burn the end product on to a CD? I will by the way read that article from ozone just enhance my learning. Thanks again it has all been helpful.
And Lawrence I just might send you a sample when i find something decent enough to send. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 01/02/2008 1:58:35 PM |
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NANI
Lokahi
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 2:05:40 PM
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| OK I am haveing a great time recording and learning alot from the recordings like ouch do I really sound like that but now I have a new question. And maybe it has already been asked and answered but I do not yet speak the language so I must have missed it. I have this nice long recording 2 hours long. How do I break it down into individual songs to study? |
"A hui hou kakou, malama pono".
Nancy |
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