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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
 Posted - 09/11/2007 : 04:43:58 AM
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Should there be an okina or not? I have seen CDs of his with Ka`apana or Kaapana. When I write his name, I would like to be pono about it.
Thank you.
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Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 05:20:23 AM
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| Auntie Maria told me that Uncle Led prefers it written without the `okina. Ever since then, I write it without. Should there or shouldn't there can be debated. No `okina is old school, right? |
Andy |
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 05:45:06 AM
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Yes, no 'okina and no kahakö is old school. Most of the old writings (newspapers, documents, etc) of the 19th century never used them. People reading knew the language and how words were pronounced without those cues. Nowadays, Hawaiian is taught with them (the 'okina is an official consonant) and that is considered correct, but that is a modern thing begun in the 20th century.
BTW on Led's own website his name is consistently spelled without the 'okina.
aloha,
Sarah |
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markwitz
`Olu`olu
USA
841 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 06:47:25 AM
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| Led signed my ukulele last night at a concert in Felton, Ca. Looking at the signature right now....definitely no 'okina. Now I gotta go edit a previous post of mine over in the "Preformance Review" forum. Thanks for the question Wand'a. |
"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain |
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Auntie Maria
Ha`aha`a
USA
1918 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 06:50:51 AM
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Funny thing -- Nedward (Led's twin) uses the `okina (not sure whether their sisters' it though).
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Auntie Maria
===================
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 07:11:33 AM
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Same question applies to Led's old group, Hui Ohana. Technically, there should be an `okina at the start of the word `ohana, but it was not commonly used when they were making their albums, so it was usually left off; however, later reissues sometimes add it back in. The spelling of ka`apana (meaning: the land division?) probably evolved without `okina when used as a proper noun. Kumu hula Moodette Ka`apana up this way uses it (she's a Ka`apana by marriage.)
There are a number of proper names that have, over time, dropped the `okina. Bill Nahalea (who posts here sometimes) does not use it, while some of his family have spelled it Nahale`a. |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 07:41:19 AM
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quote:
There are a number of proper names that have, over time, dropped the `okina.
I think that with proper names, seems it is still considered OK or maybe better to not have the okina. Take "Hawaii" or "Kaanapali" for instance. Very few Hawaiian Newspapers print Hawai'i.
Personally, I wish the okina was always included, so that newcomers would learn better pronunciation more quickly (after a few stumbles no doubt).
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 09/11/2007 08:09:44 AM |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 07:46:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence
Very few Hawaiian Newspapers print Hawai'i.
From day one, the Northwest Hawai`i Times decided that `okina and kahako are to be included in our stories, by edict of our lovely and talented luna ho`oponopono. But she expects all writers to do the research for accuracy themselves - so we miss 'em from time to time. |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 09:03:12 AM
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My grandfather taught Hawaiian language, both at UH and in community education classes, and his basic text, which he wrote, has no diacriticals. Of course, if the text author is the teacher who is standing in front of you, pronunciation is much easier.
Jesse |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 09:36:45 AM
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| I wrote to Hawai`i magaziine a couple to times to ask them to seriously consider publishing their magazine with the proper diacritical marks. Since the okina is a consonant, a word is misspelled without it, so why would a magazine want to deliberately misspell words? I thought maybe if their customers would write to them about it, perhaps they would get the hint. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 10:32:32 AM
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| Diacriticals serve the purpose of suggesting pronunciation and meaning. Although context would also impart meaning if one understands the language. For example the word lolo can be spelled with or without mekona over both o's. With mekona a sentence might have a partial phrase ...me kona lolo. that would translate 'with his brain' Without mekona if you read 'He lolo 'oia" that means 'he is crazy' or 'he is stupid' So for clarity we spell for diacriticals when writing. There is no right or wrong if one chooses to use diacriticals in their name or not. the sentences themselves in the example can readily discern the meaning of lolo since one is qualified by a possessive pronoun 'kona' while the other is prefaced by a stative 'he'. so it would be possible to write these phrases without diacriticals and yet still have a fairly clear meaning. The modern convention of diacriticals in use is to facilitate the learning of and the teaching of the Hawaiian language. Therefore the choice Ka'apana or Kaapana is entirely personal and in my opinion endless discussion on the appropriateness of diacriticals should and could be laid to rest. So to answer Wanda's question: both with respect to Led's and Ned's choices. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 11:16:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by noeau
Therefore the choice Ka'apana or Kaapana is entirely personal and in my opinion endless discussion on the appropriateness of diacriticals should and could be laid to rest.
While kahako is considered a diacritical, isn't `okina considered a consonant by some authoritative sources (Pukui & Elbert being a big one) and a diacritical by others? Makes it hard to put the discussion to rest.
But as you said - in a case like this family's name - entirely personal, and that's what we oughta follow. But even the artists themselves aren't consistent - compare Led's Dancing Cat output (Kaapana) with his most recent ones on Rhythm & Roots (Ka`apana.) But if he signs it without, I would think that trumps all. |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 2:00:58 PM
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quote:
But as you said - in a case like this family's name - entirely personal, and that's what we oughta follow. But even the artists themselves aren't consistent - compare Led's Dancing Cat output (Kaapana) with his most recent ones on Rhythm & Roots (Ka`apana.) But if he signs it without, I would think that trumps all.
I have noticed this, too, and wondered if Led had any input into the "with/without" debate for these album covers or if somebody simply thought they were doing the best they could by him and by the Hawaiian language.
(Thanks also, Gregg, for pointing out the lack of `okina in the group name "Hui Ohana." I have actually tried doing web searches on the group name with the `okina and have come up empty; without the `okina, plenty of hits.)
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 6:43:17 PM
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Well, Retro if you going get more exact. Yes an 'okina is a consonant. But again unless you like rewrite all the nupepa from the old days and ask every Hawaiian for change the spelling of their name or rewrite the Paipala Hemolele we need not continue in this line. I was just trying to illustrate that the spelling was put together by academics and the choice of spelling method is irrelevant if one understands the language beyond 101. The 'okina shows where a dropped 'K' used to be in languages that pre-date Hawaiian. It is helpful to linguists doing research but many manaleo (native speaker) interchange the 'okina quite regularly. Moloka'i is sometimes Molokai, Kahalu'u is sometimes Kahalu. The context of the spoken language defies the logic of the academic study of Hawaiian. That is why it is so important to get native speakers to share their mana'o before they leave this world.
One thing I have noticed is the hawaiian we speak today has some overtones of being spoken as a second language. If you listen to Samoan or Maori you will hear that those languages do not have the intonations of spoken Hawaiian. And if they are native speakers their English sounds like a second language. Therefore any deep discussion must be left to the experts of which I am not. I do know that even we were often viewed with disdain by native hawaiian speakers and not so much about pronunciation but more related to grammar and word choice. So with due respect us amateurs must defer to other experts in the field. I only have a BA in the language and that is hardly enough. I only share what I learned and the discussion about the appropriateness of 'okina usage is beyond the scope of this forum. With due respect and aloha I now sign off. And thank you Retro for pointing out in English the various names of parts of speech related to diacriticals and consonants.
My reply here is limited since this topic could take on the dimensions of an entire book. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 09/11/2007 6:50:26 PM |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 06:14:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by noeau
My reply here is limited since this topic could take on the dimensions of an entire book.
Al - if you write it, I want several copies!
The key aspect that you remind us here is that Hawaiian was a spoken language for so many generations, long before a written form was imposed upon it; so that written form is going to need tweaking and adjustment for many generations to come. As you noted, we need to listen to the kupuna while they are here, otherwise the language will become only a clinical approximation of what it once was, with a dramatic loss in all of its subtlety.
My question was more rhetorical than direct - if the recognized experts on `olelo Hawai`i don't agree on aspects of it, where do we amateurs go for answers to questions such as Wanda's? And I think you answered it well - we go to those with the knowledge and take the answers we get. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 06:25:17 AM
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| It is hard to be pono. But a worthy struggle none the less. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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