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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2007 : 06:32:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Retro
My question was more rhetorical than direct - if the recognized experts on `olelo Hawai`i don't agree on aspects of it, where do we amateurs go for answers to questions such as Wanda's? And I think you answered it well - we go to those with the knowledge and take the answers we get.
Precisely. The same is true of what we learn about Hawaiian music. The many "experts" I turn to for advice and instruction reject the term "expert" - partially out of humility, of course, but also because they know they don't know everything. But collectively, however, the resources we have available to us are invaluable. I am, of course, referring to the human resources...
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 06:36:46 AM
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All languages were spoken long before they were written--with Hawaiian we're just getting to see the process of transition actually happening. Aside from the problems of rendering any complex sound system in writing (the clicks in Xhosa require a whole set of symbols, and the tones of Asian languages are even more complicated), there's the fact that all languages are full of variety and are dynamic, so even if you could represent all the sounds of all the dialects in a written form (unlikely if you want consistent spelling), the dialects would be shifting even while you established the system. English is notoriously full of places where the written form diverges from the spoken--the famoust "ghoti" spelling of "fish"--and attempts to represent the actual speech of, say, a Northumbrian speaker would render the written form nearly incomprehensible to an American. (If you want to have some fun, try reading medieval texts from different parts of England--you can tell where they originate from the phonetic spelling.) The 'okina issue, though, is a pretty simple issue--the linguistics I learned decades ago sees it as a consonant rather than a vowel quality (which is what diacriticals generally signal). It's interesting but not surprising that in the written version of proper names it is sometimes omitted. (Now I'm going to have to check my manuscript for inconsistencies--another job the spell checker can't do.)
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 08:25:00 AM
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| How do you use a gerund on 'gohti' is it with an 'okina? Like this: I'm going ghoti'ing today. Oh, BTW Hawaiians never ever said to anyone they were going ghoti'ing to anyone cause it was bad luck. No bananas on the boat too. Now there's a new topic if anyone wants to pursue it. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 08:51:39 AM
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"Gone ghoti'in', instead of just a-wothi'in'." The 'okina/apostrophe problem is one that is going to give me proofreading and copy-editing nightmares. I recall that the preferred computer character set uses the same character for both, instead of, say the /`/, which would make the distinction easier to see. It's going to be fun when the time comes to turn my file into print, even without the challenges of copy-editing items from a language nobody at the publisher is likely to have any experience with.
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Edited by - Russell Letson on 09/12/2007 09:49:22 AM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 10:07:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by noeau
Oh, BTW Hawaiians never ever said to anyone they were going ghoti'ing to anyone cause it was bad luck.
Maybe that's why a certain O`ahu resident I know never mentions the words "barbecue" or "grilling" on the days they are going to do that activity; it brings rain, garans. |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 10:18:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Russell Letson
The 'okina/apostrophe problem is one that is going to give me proofreading and copy-editing nightmares. I recall that the preferred computer character set uses the same character for both, instead of, say the /`/, which would make the distinction easier to see.
In my former job, it was an issue. We needed standardized spellings for the data of Hawaiian song titles, album titles and artist names, in order for separation rules to be effective.
Meaning: when a specific artist's music played in a program, we had a programming rule that a specific amount of time was to pass before that artist's music could come up again in rotation. (Same thing for specific songs or albums; we also included bands that featured that artist.) So we had to standardize our listings, or the computerized scheduling software would see "Ledward Kaapana" and "Ledward Ka`apana" as two different artists - and might schedule his songs closer together.
Since I wasn't doing the data entry (though I did create the guidelines), I had to choose which listing to use - and in later years, kept getting argument from the data-entry team ("well, that's not how it looks on the CD"), which was a constant source of annoyance. We also went with using the single apostrophe ( ' ) to represent `okina, as I didn't want to have to explain any other marking to those same data-entry folks.
(May I just add that I am THRILLED to have that particular bugaboo not be a part of my life any longer?) |
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sandman
Lokahi
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 10:24:02 AM
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As a long time sailor I had always heard about the prohibition on bananas aboard but on the California west coast most of us throught it was just a silly superstition. Like "red sails at night," et al. But in 1963 my lady and now wife and I were trekking through Jamaica and stopped in Montego Bay. One night we were watching the women loading boxes of bananas aboard interisland boats and small freighters and found out why the prohibition.
Each load they carried spilled over with spiders, rats, and other things not good in an enclosed box surrounded by water, like a boat. Sailors may be weird folks, but they are pragmatic. No matter where. 
Sandy
Incidentally, red sails at night, a sailor's delight . . . . is pretty accurate, too. Unless there are fires inland and Santa Ana winds are picking up and you are anchored or moored on the east side of Catalina Island.  |
Leap into the boundless and make it your home.
Zhuang-zi |
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Hula Rider
Lokahi
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 07:21:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Retro
quote:
Originally posted by noeau
Therefore the choice Ka'apana or Kaapana is entirely personal and in my opinion endless discussion on the appropriateness of diacriticals should and could be laid to rest.
While kahako is considered a diacritical, isn't `okina considered a consonant by some authoritative sources (Pukui & Elbert being a big one) and a diacritical by others? Makes it hard to put the discussion to rest.
But as you said - in a case like this family's name - entirely personal, and that's what we oughta follow. But even the artists themselves aren't consistent - compare Led's Dancing Cat output (Kaapana) with his most recent ones on Rhythm & Roots (Ka`apana.) But if he signs it without, I would think that trumps all.
Yes, I agree that whatever the current conventions are for spelling, when writing names, the spelling should follow the desires of the person named. For example, I have friends named Dianne, Diane, Dian, and Dyan - all pronounced the same. When writing their names, I try to be careful to use the spelling each one prefers.
Malama pono,
Leilehua |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 07:44:35 AM
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quote:
Incidentally, red sails at night, a sailor's delight . . . . is pretty accurate, too.
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Huh?... What's with the "sails", the saying I grew up with and which (apparnetly) goes back thousands of years goes:
"Red skies at night sailors delight, red skies in morning sailor take warning."
Here is a link:
http://www.answers.com/topic/red-sky-at-night-shepherd-s-delight-red-sky-in-the-morning-shepherd-s-warning
Not to be confused with song titled ("Red sails in the Sunset").
Of course the red skies can make the sails look a little pink, but not as pink as those danged fires.
(Sorry... apologize for possible thread mis-direction)
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 09/13/2007 09:34:08 AM |
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sandman
Lokahi
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 08:00:56 AM
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Right you are, Lawrence.  I guess old age is not creeping up on me but crawling pretty fast.
Thanks for the link.
Sandy |
Leap into the boundless and make it your home.
Zhuang-zi |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 09:15:14 AM
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Beautiful bunch of ripe banana
Daylight come and me wan' go home
Hide the deadly black tarantula
Daylight come and me wan' go home
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 09:28:15 AM
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| Too piercing, man, too piercing... |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 09:28:56 AM
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quote:
I guess old age is not creeping up on me but crawling pretty fast.
Me too.
You know, as we grow older three things happen.
The first is that our memories fail us.
Now... if I could just remember the other two!
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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sandman
Lokahi
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 5:28:15 PM
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I remember the second one: Wikipedia (if you choose to believe it).
Red Sails in the Sunset was written in 1935 so I can't argue I remembered it in the womb. 'Cause I was a year old.
Of course this has nothing to do with my initial screw up but such is life on the internet. I think it was probably a great song for Hawaiian guitar in the 30's and even later, especially in the Waikiki hotels. I can hear the slide now . . . .
Sandy |
Leap into the boundless and make it your home.
Zhuang-zi |
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