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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
 Posted - 09/11/2007 : 06:51:32 AM
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My homemade ukuleles seem prone to buzzing strings in a manner very dependent on string tension. I just tuned a low G-C-E-A set down to D-G-B-E to improve balance with one low G wound string, and produce more of a slack key set-up. It worked to improve balance, and I can now strum and fingerpick with the low wound string without the wound string dominating, but the unwound C string started to buzz. (I fixed it with some doubled transparent tape cradling the string.)
I have fairly deep nut slots in this wooden nut. The Baja I bought has a nut that is little more than a strip of plastic with some relatively shallow grooves in it.
The Baja has a standard head piece with a back angle. My homemade head is straight and in-line with the finger board.
Are deep slots causing the buzzing? Is it the back angle?
If I file the nut down until it looks more like the Baja nut, would this eliminate the buzzing, or do I need to drill some holes between the lower tuning pegs and the base of the nut, reverse my tuning pegs, and increase the downward pressure of the strings on the nut slots by making the strings do a 45 degree downward bend at the top edge of the nut, come out the back, and go into the tuning pegs back there?
Given how little effort seems to have gone into the insensitive Baja nut, I am inclined to believe its probably a combination of both problems, but the deep nut slots give the string something to vibrate against, which the Baja nut design doesn't permit. More downward force and a nut slot base that I can see well enough to insure its flat (instead of one buried in the quarter inch deep nut slot) could solve the problem.
Any luthier advice out there?
Thanks.
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Thank you. |
Edited by - Absolute on 09/11/2007 06:54:37 AM |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 07:25:46 AM
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Anytime you have the sides of the nut slot holding the sides of the string, you have possibility for buzzing. It's very frustrating. I would recommend sanding down the nut until there is only a shallow groove. It is possible that your straight headstock isn't putting enough downward pressure on the nut, but it is likely the sides of the nut that is the culprit.
IMHO,
Jesse Tinsley |
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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 12:16:16 PM
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I filed the nut down until I could use a triangular file to create V-shaped grooves. (In the process, lowering the action substantially.) There was still a problem with buzzing. (I wound up going through each square toothpick fret and finding which ones now caused buzzing when I fretted the next higher one, and filing to create a slow increase in fret height beginning with the first fret through about the sixth.) That didn't solve the buzzing problem for the open strings. I drilled holes in the headstock just above the nut, and reversed the friction pegs, threading the strings through the new holes to the back of the headstock to the connection points on the tuning pegs. The combination of greater downward pressure and the V-shaped grooves eliminated the problem. (Hopefully these Aquila strings stabilize soon, because its awkward to tune inverted tuning pegs.)
WARNINGS:
1. The low G string snapped last night where it met the ninety degree angle of the lip of the drill hole as I tried to tune the instrument to the strings' intended tunings up from D-G-B-E. (I plan to get a rounded file and file the lips so they curve a little.) The regular Nylgut strings did fine. The wound string is metal around some silky fibers, not regular Nylgut.
2. Make sure you don't reduce the action of a ukulele to a point at which you can't slacken the strings for slack key if that's what you want. My low G string (which I fixed, since the break was above the nut), and the C string that I'd dropped to low G, have much greater amplitudes of vibration now, three full tones down, than with their regular tuning. (You can actually see the wave on the strings with each string slackened three full tones below its intended tension.) Substantial slack makes the string more likely to hit the fingerboard or frets of a ukulele with low action. At the same time, I really enjoy the feel of these slackened strings, and the balance the three tones down tuning lends to the combination of wound and unwound strings. The tonal durations are longer, which befits slack key style playing. (I plan to use a round file to cause the lips of the drill holes to curve rather than abruptly stopping with a 90 degree lip at the surface to reduce friction with the strings. I'll apply polyurethane to prevent wear and reduce friction with the strings.) |
Thank you. |
Edited by - Absolute on 09/12/2007 05:02:41 AM |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 06:42:06 AM
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I'm sorry you had to sand down the nut so much that it lowered your action. Luthiers might tell you that nut slots need to be shaped exactly like the string, as opposed to v-shaped. Also, uke strings are low in tension to begin with, so slacking any, except perhaps the first string, is going to result in very floppy strings. I take my baritone's first string down two steps and try and emulate Uncle Dave's slack key uke style, but couldn't imagine slacking the others. I use a set of Worth mediums.
Ukes just don't take to changing tuning from the design standard.
Your birdhouse ukes are cool and a fun way to experience the ukulele. I'm not sure I could hold one though because I already stick out in the front a little too much.
Jesse Tinsley
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 08:02:45 AM
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| I am curious. What do these ukes look like.It seems that a whole new genre of stringed instrument is being developed and from all the stuff I have read up to now. Your instrument don't sound much like a standard instrument of any kind. You put a lot of work into these instruments and I'd sure like to see and hear them. Tour tuning schemes are interesting too. I ask these questions with all due respect because I think I mentioned before there is a heck of a lot of effort being put into something that doesn't seem to work very well at this point. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 09:27:42 AM
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Actually, they both worked and have worked since soon after they were built. I intended them as prototypes. I knew nothing about building stringed instruments. I was surprised I could tune them and that I'd gotten the fret placement right (although I'd computed it using an internet tool). They sound like ukuleles. One had a better tone than the other one. Given their prototype status, as learning tools for me, I started with very high action, including a high bridge at the back, to keep the strings off the thick, square toothpick frets and above the surface of the ukulele, so I wouldn't hit it when I strummed. (I'd yet to strum one when I made that decision.) I continue to modify them to see how far I can take them and learn what I may have done wrong or less well than I could have at the start. Given the preference for low action, a concept that was completely new to me, I decided to drill new holes in the bridge to lower the action. (Whooops! Now the strings are buzzing due to contact with lower square toothpick frets when I fret on a higher fret. Time to sand the lower frets indicated to be problematic after methodically checking which cause buzzing. I also used two different bridge heights to see which would work best. I'd heard that string height affected volume and tone. It's true, by the way. I hate rules of thumb I don't have a basis to believe.)
Next the low G bug bit me. I had the one ukulele tuned with the low G set from Aquila. I didn't like the louder, longer resonant tone of the low G string. Others would have said good enough or replaced it. I decided to tinker. I knew from prior experimentation with C-low G-E-G and C-low G-E-A tuning, without swapping strings, that this would extend the resonant tone of the Aquila Nylgut strings, so I decided to slack all the strings down. This produced a much more balanced tone.
I could have stopped. The instrument was playable, but I built the instrument with very deep nut slots. I also built them using the "plastic jumping flea" design for the fingerboard and head, except I stop the fingerboard and put the soundhole where its "supposed" to be. I got into the habit of using doubled over transparent tape to cradle the strings that would buzz. I'd tried to get a music shop to fix/replace the nut. They sent the instrument home telling me I didn't have enough back angle at the head to put enough pressure on the strings to eliminate the minor buzzing, and that I'd have to find some other solution. Back to transparent tape.
I've got three ukulele's, so I decided to risk the one with poorer tone and set it up strictly as a slack key ukulele instrument. The low G tuning dropped three tones worked on it, but then I went to work on the nut, filing it down so it looked more like my Baja ukulele's nut. (I'd never seen a ukulele nut when I built these, and the plastic jumping flea site didn't have a close up picture of the nut.) When I was done, I'd gone too far with the nut filing. It lowered all the strings, and now I had to do some serious filing to slowly increase the height of the square toothpick frets over the first six or so frets. I still got some buzzing with the new nut shape. I tried gently placing my finger just behind the nut on the buzzing strings to slightly increase downward pressure, and the buzzing stopped. I decided the only way to increase the downward force on the strings was to run them through holes to tuning pegs that I inverted so you now attach the strings behind the headstock. It helped with the slackened tuning. (With less tension on the strings, there was less downward force at the nut. Slack strings tend to buzz more than unslackened strings because of this on the birdhouse ukulele, so I decided to fix the problem with more downward force at the nut and a slackened tuning, hence the "slack key ukulele" designation. I can't tune it up to full tension due to the way the strings are bent going through the holes in the headstock. Too much risk the openings at the top and bottom of the headstock, even if rounded, will increase the friction and either make it harder to tune or break a string. Note: All I have to do is invert the tuning pegs, and the instrument can be strung as it was before with high tension strings.)
I got it back to the point last night were I could tune it to D-G-B-E using the low G string set. I love the resulting tone, but the G string and C string resonate with such high amplitude when finger picked (rather than strummed) that they hit the frets and the sound board near the first fret. (Yeah, I could just pluck more gently, but who wants that worry?) I tried transparent tape under the "low G" tuned to D string, and the problem went away given the greater elevation.
I moved on, did the superglue thing with the nut slots of the low strings, and when they dry I'll recut the grooves being more careful this time. I also rounded the holes through which the strings plunge where the strings were encountering the most friction due to the ninety degree lip on both the top and the bottom. I'm replacing the round fret markers with bigger, rectangular ones, so I can see them better. I'm leaving the other birdhouse ukulele alone. It seems to work without tape after my last round of nut work on it, as long as I keep the string tension where its supposed to be. It has a nice tone, and is the ukulele I play the most, because the big box makes it so easy to hold onto. I don't need another massive ukulele overhaul.
When I confirm the nut slots are right on my other "birdhouse" ukulele, and have sanded off the old round fret markers and glued the new, larger, rectangular ones in place, I'll give it a coat of polyurethane, let it dry, restring it, and it becomes my official "slack key ukulele", using a low G string set tuned to D-G-B-E. I ordered individual wound G and C strings from Aquila in Italy at $1.91 each plus $2.00 for shipping. (I got three of each given the shipping cost.) I hope to see how my "storebought" Baja sounds with low G tuning, but with a wound C string to lend more balance. I don't want wound A and E strings, they squeak and increase friction during slides.
You can see the "birdhouse" ukuleles and the sound of "Aloha Oe" being played by me on one a few weeks after I built them with the basic, rough design on my web site. I think they sound better now, with fewer steel drum overtones. Like ukuleles. (I play them on some of the tunes I've written, but that was before I filed some of the frets down to prevent buzzing due to lower frets in contact with higher ones. I didn't learn about that phenomenon until I took some time to diagnose the problem one weekend through some observation and methodical testing of which strings were buzzing. I ran into the same problem around the 5th or 6th fret of the Baja I ordered, and had to file one side of it down slightly, where the fret had a small rise.)
The only difference in my design is the seperate bridge to give height to the strings, for more tone and volume, since I didn't know how much a wooden box would amplify, given the unknown acoustic properties of a wooden box I glued together one weekend with no prior experience. (I hate to say it, but I play the Baja concert very little due to its size and the sense of playing an instrument that is hard to hold onto. When I do play it, I have to use the concert "guitar" strap ("Uke Thong" from E-bay) to play it with any confidence.
The "birdhouse" ukuleles, being made of mahogany/pine plywood, are fairly massive, so they've got decent sustain, and respond nicely to the D-G-B-E tuning. I built them with a 16" resonant string length, but I'd move that up to full tenor scale now. I was afraid I couldn't find strings if I went much beyond what I'd read some soprano's used in terms of resonant string length. Now I know that tenor ukuleles exist on a 17" resonant scale. I'd probably build the next birdhouse ukulele a bit longer depending on how long the resonant string length had to be to create usable frets above the 10th fret based on my fingers, in keeping with my "build it big, rectangular, and usable" philosophy with regard to ukuleles.
That small size is why I never took it up as a kid, in addition to the store owners locally asking me why I didn't just want to learn to play guitar, which they had in stock. Those flat planes on the big box make it easy to cradle in your arms. (I read about cigar box ukuleles later. I don't plan to build one, because they tend to be smaller than birdhouse ukuleles.)
You could build one using the "plastic jumping flea" site. Just follow the guidelines, there, but use a wooden box with a hole or holes in the top instead of using the food container. It would probably work as well or better than mine. Keep your frets closer to the nut, because that will increase downward force on the nut. (I extended my frets a bit too far upward in two instances on both ukuleles.) Be careful about the weight of the box and the thickness of the wood. |
Thank you. |
Edited by - Absolute on 09/12/2007 09:57:24 AM |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 09:37:09 AM
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I think your ukes are just another demonstration of how simple the uke is. Many stringed instruments can use a variety of sound boxes and still work adequately. I've been collecting tin tubs at home to build more upright basses along the same lines. The biggest challenge with a uke is an accurate fret measurement and height to eliminate buzzing. But even a buzzy instrument is fun if you're lying in the grass at a park and your kids are playing nearby.
Jesse |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 10:19:19 AM
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| Went to the site. Very interesting. I don't know if its feasible but why don't you rework a neck with the usual angle built in to the headstock so you get more pressure on the nut from the string angle? Nice color BTW. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 11:39:43 AM
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| I engaged in this little project expecting "plastic jumping flea" results using that design. I don't have the woodworking knowledge/skill/tools to do a dovetail at an angle backwards. I built these with a large carpenter's handsaw, a chisel, a hammer, sandpaper, and a drill, with the paintbrush optional if you buy spray on polyurethane. Dovetailing at an angle would probably require the purchase of more tools, and skills I don't have. (You probably wouldn't even use a dovetail joint for this. It's a furniture joint.) If you're building ukuleles full time, it makes sense to buy all the right tools. I tried to keep the price as low as possible. (I wouldn't advise use of the handsaw; it puts your fingers at risk with such detailed work on small pieces of wood. I used pine for the neck, saddle, and bridge because I could use sandpaper to do a lot of the shaping.) If all you want is a cheap, plywood ukulele, there are better options off the shelf. I wanted a BIG cheap ukulele that I knew I could hold onto with ease in a scale that I hoped would suit me. I came pretty close, though I'd extend the fingerboard a couple of inches now. I could probably increase the back angle by either mounting the top two friction pegs closer to the nut, or chiseling out more wood, so the tuning pegs were mounted further below the nut, or, most likely, a combination of the two. Doing the standard back angle would make success more likely. The straight headstock worked for the plastic jumping flea though, so complexity might not be required with STANDARD tuning. (Note: The other birdhouse ukulele, in standard tuning, isn't the focus of this thread. I dropped the tension three full tones. That's when back angle and buzzing became a bigger deal. That's why I hoped that reshaping the nut to eliminate DEEP SLOTS would solve my problem. I found out it didn't with the slackened tuning, so I went further.) |
Thank you. |
Edited by - Absolute on 09/12/2007 11:42:00 AM |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 5:15:47 PM
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Angled headstocks on guitars don't use a dovetail. A straight neck is cut off at an angle, and the head is reversed and glued back on.
www.buildyourguitar.com Try this site for some ideas. Also, many straight-headed guitars use a small metal guide to create downward tension on the nut. Look at some Fender guitars for the design. There's probably nothing wrong with your design that can't be corrected with a little experimenting and thinking. And if you're having fun, it's all good.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
Edited by - rendesvous1840 on 09/12/2007 5:16:40 PM |
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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 5:39:48 PM
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I considered adding a metal guide wrapped around the headstock. (You know, clothes hanger wire or something a little stronger bent in a rectangular shape under which I'd thread the strings, with a groove in the base of the headstock that would hold it in place with the upward string force. It seemed a little too complicated for my purposes. I like simple.)
Thanks for the information regarding how the headstock is joined to the neck. If I build another one of these someday (probably won't, but only because I've got two already), I'd probably try to angle the neck slightly to provide more options with regard to lowering the action. I can cut the headstock off and use a mitre box to give it a 30 degree back angle.
I just cut the nut, this time with welding pipe tip cleaners, thanks to "Hapakid"'s reminder about the slot shape. I left the action higher this time, and there is no buzzing even with the low G -C-E-A string set tuned down to D-G-B-E. I didn't have to invert the tuning pegs after all!
This is now my slack key ukulele machine (with four "worm holes" in the head I don't need to remind me not to outsmart myself in the future with decisions made based on a desire for "low action" with strings three full tones below their
normal tension and a straight headstock).
This "birdhouse" ukulele sounds very nice with the low tuning. The wound G string is balanced due to the slack in the string as well as by other strings that now have longer tones because they are also slackened. The plywood box does well with the lower tones.
The polyurethane should be dry by tomorrow, and I look forward to playing it this weekend. The three tone lowered D-G-B-E tuning is great, because I can still use G-C-E-A chord shapes, but I get the advantage of the sound of slackened strings and long tones.
My Baja has nice sustain with its solid spruce top, but it doesn't seem to be designed for low tuning. I slackened the G and C strings on it down to C and low G, respectively, using a standard Nylgut set, thinking if it sounded good, I'd just reverse the strings and retune to low G, but it didn't sound good.
I was hoping that by reversing the C and G strings, and tuning to low G-C-E-G, I could produce a more slack key oriented version of "Taro Patch", which I stopped using, because if all you do is slacken the G string, it seems pretty pointless. No slack key benefits I could recognize. (Okay, one whole string is slackened, but the range is actually decreased.) I'd hoped tuning a standard set to low G after reversing G and C strings with the A string tuned to G would produce longer tones and more range, which would be very consistent with slack key and wouldn't require a change of strings, but not with this Baja. It seems designed for higher frequency performance. (I could try it on the other birdhouse, but I don't want to mess around with the slots. Same problem with the Baja. Slots in nut might not work if C and G strings were reversed.)
I wonder if it would work with other concert or soprano ukuleles, or if this low tuning option only works well with bigger ukuleles, such as tenors? (Not specifically because of the nut slots, but due to the tonal range the smaller ukuleles are built to enhance.)
Note: Both "birdhouse" ukulele's are once again playable (as soon as polyurethane completely dries on my slack key (!) ukulele.) |
Thank you. |
Edited by - Absolute on 09/13/2007 04:23:13 AM |
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Absolute
Lokahi
275 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2007 : 1:12:29 PM
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Final Note:
When you see an ad on the internet claiming that a retailer will adjust the action of a ukulele before it is sent, hope that they aren't kidding. I got a pretty nice Baja spruce top concert ukulele, but never played it because the action was high enough that my hand would ache from having to push down on the strings near the nut, which also took time and made changing chords near the nut harder, even though it was sold as having a low action from the manufacturer. I played the birdhouse uke instead of the Baja because I'd dared to adjust the action low enough to make that possible, and it had a slightly larger scale than a concert (by an inch and a quarter), which made it easier to fret.
I used those welding pipe tip cleaners to adjust the Baja nut today after trying to play it one more time with "Discovering the Ukulele's" tabs last night. It is a much friendlier instrument now. No aching palm muscles when I was finished playing it. (I also like the width of the inter-string spacing.)
To close this topic out, DEEP SLOTS are bad if they prevent you from seeing the base of the slot and thus prevent you from producing a flat slot base for the nut and one with proper width.
The trick of refilling a buzzing slot and recutting it with pipe tip cleaners will work best if you have a nut that is not so high above the fingerboard to prevent you from using the pipe tip cleaners effectively.
Once I had filed the nut down to about a quarter inch above the fingerboard, then filed a "V" shape near the top of each slot so I could see the base, refilling the slot with superglue and cutting a new slot with the pipe tip cleaners worked on the first try. I'd been having problems with that trick for months and had to redo the procedure more than once when I'd attempt to adjust the action properly. (It was also important to wind down on the tuning pegs to produce more downward force.) |
Thank you. |
Edited by - Absolute on 09/17/2007 1:17:09 PM |
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