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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
 Posted - 10/03/2007 : 03:58:14 AM
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Reid - how timely you posted this. I was just reading up on the Hoku`lea. It seemed obvious to me that there was no accidental migration to Hawai`i. Too much preparation was required to do so without plenty aforethought. Moreover, the oral history is too expansive for there to be "myths" about the travels. I've read some books and articles by Herb Kane and he offers some great insights (as well as his very detailed paintings which could almost be pohotgraphs of the way life was then).
Now to me the question is...were those great voyagers the Menehune or others (from Kahiki? Samoa?). How did the Menehune get there? |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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sandman
Lokahi
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2007 : 06:11:16 AM
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There has been a lot written over the years supporting Polynesian navigators, both by long distance sailors like David Lewis and by anthropologists. One of the best sources from the latter group is Ben Finney, who is now Professor Emeritus at UH's anthropology department. He is a good example of one who mixes both anthropology and long distance sailing to good effect. Years ago he said that one of the problems with the nay sayers was that they were too Euro-centered and were landlubbers to boot. They couldn't understand how some people viewed the sea other than as they did so fearfully.
Many interesting writings on this topic but the controversy has been over for years. Nice to see more physical proof, however.
Sandy |
Leap into the boundless and make it your home.
Zhuang-zi |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2007 : 07:49:57 AM
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Sandy, physical proof is the Gold Standard in archaeology. You can do all the sailing demos, or linguistic studies and stylistic comparisons of material culture you want and there will still be doubters. (Ask Tom Dye or Pat Kirch). I mean, if sailing demos meant anything, Thor Heyerdahl would have everyone still believing that Hawaiians came from South America.
...Reid |
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sandman
Lokahi
USA
181 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2007 : 12:35:10 PM
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And Tim Severin would have proven Asians had sailed the North Pacific to North America (except his bamboo boat was abandoned part way :-) ). I don't disagree that there will always be doubters (about anything) but I haven't seen too many supporters of Andrew Sharp's theories lately.
Sandy |
Leap into the boundless and make it your home.
Zhuang-zi |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2007 : 03:30:55 AM
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The real proof of Polynesian migration and the seamanship involved therein is the distribution of Polynesians themselves. Large canoes can travel great distances. In the PNW, natives cultures travelled extensively. There are pioneer blockhouses on Whidbey Island, WA, built to withstand the raids of the Haida from the Queen Charlotte Islands (Haida Gwai'i). These raids are not questioned because white folks actually saw them. Thor Heyerdahl also wrote a book called "Early Man and the Ocean". It's a good read.
Check out his "NW Indians in the Pacific" also. |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2007 : 05:30:55 AM
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Sorry for this side trip...
Wanda:
I had alway thought that Menehune were mythical. Are you saying that the origin of that term ws taken from an actual occurence? Troublemakers navigating to Hawaii? |
Bob |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2007 : 06:27:08 AM
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quote:
I had alway thought that Menehune were mythical. Are you saying that the origin of that term ws taken from an actual occurence? Troublemakers navigating to Hawaii?
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Don't confuse the Irish Leprechauns with the Menehune. The term, Menehune, so far as I understand, means "small in stature" and that could be physical stature or cultural stature. When the Tahitian's arrived in Hawaii about 1300 years ago, there is some evidence of people already present (who were pushed out or otherwise displaced) by the Tahitians. There is some conjecture that the term Menehune may have been used by the Tahitians much like the derogatory terms the Europeans used for native Americans. So they may or may not have been actually small in physical stature. They did not necessarily perform Leprechaun style tricks, that seems (to me) to be a recently imported (from Europe) fable.
Like the archeology of sailing, there seems to be very little physical evidence (some rock ponds, etc. - which could have been erected by others). However, there was a physically small skeleton uncovered recently in western Polynesia that may eventually throw some light on the subject.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 10/04/2007 06:29:09 AM |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2007 : 06:57:58 AM
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Although many word origins are lost in the fog of time, I read somewhere that the word "menehune" is adapted from the words "mana", meaning strength or power, and "hune", meaning poor or tiny. Also, I read that it was meant to be derogatory when coined by the conquering Tahitians. It was almost sure to be figurative, but the Tahitians were large people, so it could have been both, too. I think the "mythical" part of the Menehune is just the legend of miniature people who could build elaborate structures overnight without being seen. But isn't it agreed that the Tahitians likely conquered or displaced some other group of people when they arrived in Hawai'i?
Jesse Tinsley |
Edited by - hapakid on 10/04/2007 06:58:18 AM |
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da_joka
Lokahi
361 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2007 : 07:20:20 AM
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I foget all da details, but in one (or more) of my Hawaiian history classes I had fo take in school, I remembah learning dat had people in da Islands befo da polynesians came and "re-populated" da islands wit da current Hawaiians. Please correct me if I stay wrong, but da earlier people ended up being da lowest caste, below da commoners (maka`ainana). Anyways, anyone know wen da first people came to da islands? My guess was dat it wen happen in waves. How much? Dunno. But it must of been da last wave dat formed da Hawaiian culture as we know it - of course befo da arrival of da haole.
All dis goes to show is dat da Polynesians been navigating da seas fo long time no? Amazing. |
If can, can. If no can, no can. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2007 : 08:25:07 AM
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Actually, no archaelogist has ever found any evidence of earlier "people". Read Pat Kirch's stuff. In addition, Tom Dye (former HI State Archaeologist) told me that the probable initial jumping off point to Hawai`i was the The Marquesas, not Tahiti. Although, later *probable* communication with Tahiti complicates the picture.
There is enough unknown that people have lots of wiggle room in their favorite versions of the distant past (of every place, not just Hawai`i).
...Reid |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2007 : 08:28:45 AM
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There is no evidence of this caste system being developed. But conquering people usually make slaves of the vanquished. Martha Beckwith makes mention of of menehune being indigenous to the islands before the coming of people from the Marquesas and probably Tahiti. I often imagined a group of people say 5'8" to 6" in height encountering a group of people 6'8" to 7'6" in height. The shorter people would be tiny indeed. Beckwith's tome on Hawaiian mythology also makes mention of Mu found in some of the 'oli she studied. Interesting reading I suggest we as students of the cultures of Polynesia and Hawai'i add this to our reading list. Also check out stuff written by Sinoto an anthropologist from Bishop Museum.
Just an aside but I remember taking part in a conversation with some people from Ni'ihau about the finding of skeletal remains where they insisted the skulls were as large as basketballs. Folklore? Maybe but a lot of anecdotal stuff is accepted until physical proof is found. If menehune existed and if their culture was similar to those who came later how would our august scientists know if a, let's say cooking fire were from before or after the big guys showed up in the islands? I know about gold standards and all and I respect that. But it wasn't too long ago when M.D.s would bleed a patient for therapeutic purposes. I know this sort of contradicts my earlier statement since bleeding is not practiced too widely today based on knowledge gleaned from further research. And research usually reveals new evidence and all that. But not everything can be proven empirically. That doesn't make it untrue. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
Edited by - noeau on 10/04/2007 08:41:10 AM |
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da_joka
Lokahi
361 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2007 : 09:12:44 AM
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i always was taught dat da menehune was folklore. I not trying fo say dat everyting I was taught was true ... lol. Wen I teach general chemistry, we lie to da students all da time (teaching dem stuff witout any proof). It takes da next 3 or 4 years of a chem major's existence to undo all da lies ... ha ha ha.
You guys no consider da Ali`i, Kahuna, Maka`ainana, and da untouchables, one caste system? Maybe caste is da wrong word, but I tink dat da hawaiians definately had one social ladder. Anyways, I'm still interested in trying fo find out da truth of who was in da islands first, and da order dey wen come. Regardless, polynesian navigation is right on. How da first polynesians supposed fo find one island in da middle of da ocean w/o knowing dat one island even exists dea? By accident? |
If can, can. If no can, no can. |
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mokupuni
Aloha
30 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2007 : 10:11:45 AM
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Migrations
Review the Polynesian Voyaging site:
http://pvs.kcc.hawaii.edu/
Menehune
The menehune are mentioned throughout our histories. I also know folks that are descended from these peoples (they know their genealogy).
Sharing some past research on my own with just Martha Beckwith's Hawaiian Mythology text.
If you don't have the text you can read it on-line:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/pac/hm/index.htm
Pages: 42, 71, 79, 124, 170, 327-238, 330, 387, 500-501
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'O au iho no,
Liko Puha |
Edited by - mokupuni on 10/04/2007 10:17:03 AM |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2007 : 11:19:16 AM
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Thanks for the Link Liko.
I am looking forward to doing much more reading on this Menehune / Manahune subject!
In my mind, it seems reasonable that they were other Polynesians who arrived long before the more recent wave of Tahitians. Where these earlier folks had come from and what happened after the Tahitians arrived would be an interesting story.
Maybe they arrived with Thor Heyerdal aboard the Kon-Tiki from South America! (sorry - just a joke!!).
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2007 : 1:38:17 PM
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Now this book I am going to tell you about is not a scholarly book, but it is a wonderful book to explain how to be pono. It is called Ho`opono by Pali Jae Lee.
She talks about a group of ocean "nomads" who sailed following a star they called Hokule`a to a small harbor on what is now called Moloka`i. They called it Halawa Valley. They still traveled, but always came back to this valley because of the good fresh water supply and plentiful fish. At the mouth of the river, they built a heiau which has been carbon dated to being the oldest man-made structure in all of the Hawaiian Islands. They were able to plant taro, sweet potato, ti, herbs, coconut trees, hala trees, breadfruit trees, kukui nut trees and paper mulberry trees. Everything grew in abundance. In time other families joined them, People began to move out to other parts of the island and eventually to other islands. These first inhabitants of Hawai`i called themselves `Ohana Mo`o, and it is supposed that they used the word Mo`o as a dragon because of ancestral ties to China. However, where they first landed on Moloka`i there is a large rock formation on a mountain that looks like a mighty dragon. There were two elders in this small group of people that were rembered as gods -- Ku and Hina, They do not know much about what happened to Ku but they know that Hina must have lived a long life because Moloka`i has always been known as "Moloka`i Nui o Hina".
The people were peaceful and small in stature. Eventually some "giants" from Samoa and Tahiti came. The people already living there know nothing of warfare and battles. They were overpowered by these people whose chief's name as Pa`ao "the man who wore death" because he wore white kapa, which was only used normally to wrap the bones of the dead. This Pa`ao was the first kahu to come to Hawai`i and he brought his tiki with him. He brought laws, rules and great change. He started the kapu system. All the succeeding chiefs of Hawai`i descended from these Tahitians.
Anyhow, to make a long story short, this lady writes of these things because her husband was of the Mo`o clan and his family kept the history by selecting one family member of each generation to be taught nothing but the family history. They did not have to do any other work, but learn and recite the family history. According to her, in the 13th ceentury when where was another wave of migration from Tahiti, they big guys called the people already living there "mana hune" (small, without power.
She says that the stories about the "menehune" accomplishing great feats during the night was beause they stuck together and helped each other, every single one of them pitched in to help whenever any work needed to be done, so they could accomplish things very quickly.
No archeological evidence. Nothing scientific. Me, I no care. I believe it. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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