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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
 Posted - 10/10/2007 : 1:05:24 PM
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At the time my Simon & Patrick was built, they were using nitrocellulose lacquer for their finishes. I don't know that anything has changed, but it has been about 12 years, so it's possible they are using different finishes now. I did ask several years back, as I had some pick scratches and was thinking of retouching it. They told me what the finish is, and suggested leaving that to professionals. That's good advice, nitro lacquer can be tricky to apply well. I decided to leave it alone; I know I would have only made more scratches anyway. Simon & Patrick guitars are made in the Seagull factory, supposedly as a premium line. It's probably a good guess the same finish is used on both lines. I haven't seen a large number of either, but the ones I've seen sound and play great. With the Canadian Government subsidizing it as an art form, they are one of the best bargains in guitars.As Wanda said, my old Eko has a very thick polyurethane finish. Looking from the side, it has about 1/16"- 3/32" coating on it. It may be the thickness that deadens the sound so much, more than the chemical content. Thy plywood doesn't help, but some laminated instruments sound pretty good. What wood is used in the laminations may have an effect, also.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2007 : 5:35:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Podagee57
I have been taking mental notes on various guitar brands to help me make an educated decision on which will be my next purchase.
Howzit Kurt: I had a reply for you regarding your post that was too long and sort of off-topic so I emailed you.
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Aloha,
John A. |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2169 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2007 : 05:52:25 AM
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| Slipry1 can discourse on this, he worked at McCabe's and has seen a lot of axes. I've heard of builders bungying stock to speakers to age the wood before building a guitar. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 12:24:24 PM
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Hey Larry -
Interesting thread. Getting back to your intial query:
After playing my koa/cedar Jerry Nolte parlor guitar for maybe 15 years, I ordered a big brother for it. I waited over two 1/2 years for my big Nolte, so you can bet I was stoked to play it when it finally arrived. And it stunk. No tone, no volume, no sweetness, no whatever it is we like about a guitar. To say I hated the guitar was an understatement.
It took almost three years of blasting Bob Marley at it, not to mention playing and playing and playing. And yeah, the change was like, overnight. It's now one of the sweetist sounding guitars I have ever heard.
The big Taylor I bought while waiting for the Nolte sounded great from the minute it was made. Funny thing, it's been played a ton, probably more than the Nolte, (and massaged with a lot of reggae) but it's changed barely at all -- to my ears it is exactly the same guitar it was all those years ago. That's not a bad thing, but sic semper robotus.
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Podagee57
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 08:13:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
Hey Larry -
It took almost three years of blasting Bob Marley at it, not to mention playing and playing and playing. And yeah, the change was like, overnight. It's now one of the sweetist sounding guitars I have ever heard.
So Mark, you mean to say that you set it in front of a speaker to loosen it up? What's your technique, I'm curious.
And "sic semper robotus"?
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What? You mean high "E" is the TOP string. No way dude! That changes everything! |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 08:41:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark
Hey Larry -
Interesting thread. Getting back to your intial query:
After playing my koa/cedar Jerry Nolte parlor guitar for maybe 15 years, I ordered a big brother for it. I waited over two 1/2 years for my big Nolte, so you can bet I was stoked to play it when it finally arrived. And it stunk. No tone, no volume, no sweetness, no whatever it is we like about a guitar. To say I hated the guitar was an understatement.
It took almost three years of blasting Bob Marley at it, not to mention playing and playing and playing. And yeah, the change was like, overnight. It's now one of the sweetist sounding guitars I have ever heard.
The big Taylor I bought while waiting for the Nolte sounded great from the minute it was made. Funny thing, it's been played a ton, probably more than the Nolte, (and massaged with a lot of reggae) but it's changed barely at all -- to my ears it is exactly the same guitar it was all those years ago. That's not a bad thing, but sic semper robotus.
This is for both Mark & Thumbs. I've never been a finisher, just a teacher & salesman, but my best friend, John Zehnder, ran the repair shop for years and was a builder (it's hard to believe that he's been gone for almost 2 years), so I heard a lot of banter, most of which I don't remember. I've had a lot of experience with Martin guitars, which, for a long time, had an interesting life history. When brand new, they sounded ok, but they would go "bad" for a year or two if not played a whole lot - hard to tune and not very well intoned - very frustrating. We had a lot of people come in and complain, and I suffered though it with my 000-19 and 000-28. After about 4 years, the problem would go away, and the guitar would be marvelous. I had to sell the 000-28 in order to buy a house (sigh), so when I saw a D-18 at a low price in the local ad rag, I couldn't believe it. It was just 4 years old, and I could tell it was coming out of its funk. It had also never been set up properly (good, mass produced, acoustic guitars come from the fatory with the action high, for obvious reasons). After a setup, it's been great for me ever since. So.... even the best guitars need to be broken in. I'll let Mark explain about playing Marley (good) music at it ;). |
keaka |
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Puna
Lokahi
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 09:32:03 AM
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quote:
So Mark, you mean to say that you set it in front of a speaker to loosen it up? What's your technique, I'm curious.
When I was working with a luthier to build my guitar, we hung the neck/body assemblies in the finish room for several weeks (as we slowly applied the 15 coats of nitrocellulose). The finish room has two large speakers aimed at the assemblies, and music plays 24 hours a day (blues and flat-pick styles, the luthier's preference).
When my completed guitar came home I put it on a stand (a kind that allows a lot of movement) and set up a speaker about a foot away. The guitar got to listen to slack key, leo ki'eki'e (esp. Dennis Pavao) and a little bit of 'uke (to help it have some perspective) at a fairly high volume for 4-6 hours a day for about a week (no playing - I was still letting the finish off-gas).
At the end of the week it went to Aloha Music Camp (I got to go, too), where it was played by Keola, Kevin, Mark, and others who knew what they were doing.
That was the 'opening up' process for my guitar.
Interestingly, both Kevin and Mark got to play it again a year later. Both were amazed at how much more it has opened. |
Puna |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 1:28:33 PM
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Chunky and I went to a taylor Roadshow two weeks ago and the Head Bubba announced that solid koa guitars, because of the nature of the wood open up more than other guitars. That was an interesting statement that would be very difficult to demonstrate.
In my personal experience, the more I play my solid koa taylor the better it sounds. I'm not sure if it is my playing ability or the 'opening up' but that guitar is a "keeper" (Sorry Nancy). I played a new solid koa GS series and it sounded good but not as goom as my NAMM Show Special, solid koa, grand concert.
I am sure it was them "Hula Girl Shakers" I talked about before (see very early in this post). |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 2:11:59 PM
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All of this is really interesting reading! I guess I had never paid attention to this "opening up" thing before other than remembering that I heard somewhere that a guitar must be played often to sound its best. I keep my three favorite guitars on stands in the house and play whichever one or two that I happen to feel like playing that day. Fortunately for me, the humidity in my home remains just about optimum most of the time and I've never had a problem with any of the guitars in the nearly six years I've lived here in Washington. When I lived in Hawaii, I always kept the guitars in their cases. We almost always have music playing in the house and I do play the guitar just about daily. Does this count towards "opening up" or does the music have to be blasted?
Puna: I hope to see and hear your new guitar one of these days!
Mika ele: It's interesting what you heard from Taylor on solid koa guitars. My experience tends to agree with that concept. My new koa/spruce GS sounded great from day one but continues to slowly improve with age (at least to my ears) maybe because it's still new. I also have a koa/cedar Takamine (history unknown as I bought it used) that sounds very good though also different from the GS but hasn't changed much since I bought it quite a number of years ago. My '95 rosewood/spruce 812-C has improved the most with age but is limited by it's smaller size, which is one of the main reasons I bought the GS. |
Aloha,
John A. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 2:31:30 PM
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quote:
So Mark, you mean to say that you set it in front of a speaker to loosen it up? What's your technique, I'm curious.
I'm not fooling about Bob Marley -- classic reggae recordings have just about the perfect balance of bass and treble frequencies, and the heartbeat riddim is great for massaging the wood (and your spine, if you turn it up loud enuf.)
BTW: I actually have heard from a number of luthiers back in the wayback that Bob Marley was the record of choice for this purpose. Just put the guitar in the room, play a little "One Love" and see for yourself.
quote:
And "sic semper robotus"?
What John Wilkes Booth woulda shouted had he shot the animatronic Lincoln. 
My reference is to the way Taylors are made... "untouched by human hands," as they usta say.
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Edited by - Mark on 10/29/2007 2:32:07 PM |
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Momi
Lokahi
402 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 05:50:17 AM
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This thread is one of the reasons I love this board - I get to eavesdrop on discussions I might not have heard in real life and learn something in spite of myself.
I would guess that any good guitar, by definition, will eventually open up. Have any of you had/heard about instruments that do not open up? (Besides plastic ones, of course.) I would guess from other posts that even an old instrument can be encouraged to open up, but is there a certain point after which an old instrument is beyond hope? Or does it just depend on time, wood, humidity, and circumstances (and the availability of Bob Marley records and good speakers?) |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 07:22:03 AM
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Well, then, how do those composite guitars work? When they are made, are they as good as it gets? Like dem Ovations? And why make a guitar out of something that is all chemicals?
Frankly, I plinked one once at Sam Ash and was not impressed by the tone at all. However, that may have more to do with all the young teen-age boys in there wranging away on electric stuff with lots of volume. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 10/30/2007 1:20:14 PM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 9:42:23 PM
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| Do `ukuleles have to "open up"? I think mine sounds mighty swell right now. (Well, except when I am playing it, but swell when Paul is playing it). |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2007 : 07:45:00 AM
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Bob Marley would Open it Up . .
. .Rasta-Man vibration yaaauuuhhh . . Irie Eye !!!!
hmmm . . I wonder what was stashed in his guitar . . . |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2007 : 5:42:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mika ele
Bob Marley would Open it Up . .
. .Rasta-Man vibration yaaauuuhhh . . Irie Eye !!!!
hmmm . . I wonder what was stashed in his guitar . . .
Maybe that is what opened it up!?! |
Aloha,
John A. |
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