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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 01/13/2008 : 07:54:31 AM
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On recordings, it often appears that the physical sounds that fingerpicks make often are slightly out-of-sync with the sound...
especially on more rapid articulations...
Do picks sound before or after the note articulates?
It's gotta be that "The clicks" sound BEFORE the sound/note articulates, eh?
And is it the prep/settup to the stroke, or the actual string stike and subsequent note articulation that makes the most "click"...
I guess I might call it the click-to-note sound ratio...
I don't mind--its' usually with some great playing... but it does become a rhythmic element that feels and sounds "out of sync".
I've heard it on many artists where picks are used...but it seems most pronounced where 16th note triplets, and faster, more demanding passages are in play.
Finally, perhaps some recordings show less "clicking" because of varied techniques of artists and also because EQ, miking placements/distances, or production (sound tools) "tricks" and other engineer "artistry" are implemented to minimalize the "click-to-note" signal levels!?
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Edited by - Kapila Kane on 01/13/2008 07:58:42 AM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2008 : 10:06:47 AM
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I've recorded a number of guitarists (and banjo players) who use finger picks. I hate 'em-- broadly speaking.
Seriously, it is very difficult to eliminate the clicking. Some players have better technique, which seems to cut down on the racket. But I'm afraid I haven't a clue what that technique would be.. Oh, and chrome metal picks are the worst, as far as I can tell.
Yes, the clicks can be annoyingly out of synch. More so on passages where some of the articulation is slurs.
What I have generally done in the past is simply move the mics further away from the source. This can bring in more room, or not if you have proper gobos (those free-standing moveable walls you see in all the studio photos) and other treatment. A nice hardwood floor helps, too.
All that requires a real studio... my home studio is far too, ummm, weird sounding.
Trying to EQ 'em out works to a very limited extent, as you'll end up losing the frequencies that give the guitar life.
Editing? I'm afraid I don't have the patience to dive into the waveform for each and every note on a three to five minute guitar track. (Though I will do it for squeaks.)
Incidentally-- you might be showing your age: "Sound Tools" was the name of the original 2 channel digital editing and mastering system from Digidesign, makers of ProTools. I had a Sound Tools suite when I was in the studio biz back in the dawn of the digital age. SoundTools has been out of production for many, many years.
I'd love to hear how other folks deal with the problem.
cheers,
Mark
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Edited by - Mark on 01/13/2008 10:08:45 AM |
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Larry Goldstein
Lokahi
267 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2008 : 10:46:35 AM
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quote:
Some players have better technique, which seems to cut down on the racket.
If you want to hear a banjor player w/ virtually no click, at least to my ear, and an extraordinary musician, try Bela Fleck.
Larry |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2008 : 4:49:52 PM
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The picks seem to be noisier if you strike the strings at the edge of the pick. The finger stroke needs to be perpendicular to the line of the string. Plastic picks seem a little quieter, but I don't really care for the feel, and they're harder to get to fit the fingers.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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Hula Rider
Lokahi
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2008 : 10:12:07 PM
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Mahalo, Mark, for clearing that up!
I have very thin nails, and some time ago I started gluing the plastic ones on to protect my fingers. It took me a while to figure out THAT was where the annoying clicking sound coming over the monitor was originating!
As I have a rather, ummmm, VARIABLE! Yes! THAT's the word, VARIABLE technique (not sure that TECHNIQUE is the right word, though!), the clicking is all over the place, and drives me nuts! But it is that or lose what little fingernail I have.
Of course, now that Manu and I are playing together, I can just let HIM deal with the instruments! BWAHHAHAHA!
Mahalo!
Leilehua |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 05:36:45 AM
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| Sounds like time for another plug for Alaska Piks (whom I'm not affiliated with in any way other than as a satisfied customer). Made out of plastic, they're as close to an extension of your fingernail as you can get and can be even by cut and shaped with nail clippers and files. I've never had clicking problems with them. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 07:59:52 AM
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The reason the pick sound sometimes seems out of rhythm is that it is actually a small buzz that happens when the pick is first contacting an ALREADY VIBRATING string. The string damps as this buzz occurs and then the next note is sounded as the pick pulls across and releases. The pick material and angle of attack and amount of vibration from the previous note all make a difference in this case. Regular fingers and Alaska picks allow the flesh of the finger to damp the previous note without making a short "buzz" so this clicking is greatly reduced.
I'm kind of a picky guy myself. I first started with metal (front of finger) picks and a plastic thumb pick for many years. Then I went for plastic front-of-finger picks for several more years. Then I adapted to Alaska picks (took several years) which call for a radically different finger attack than front-of-finger picks and are also strangely different than the finger-nails they try to emulate.
I grew tired of the steel finger picks mainly because of the strident sound. The other styles are OK for me depending upon the sound I want to get. I play mostly with regular nails these days PRIMARILY because I am too loud with the other picks when playing with others. I found it really hard to backoff and get a quiet sound with front-of-finger picks and even with Alaska picks (but less so). However, if I want to get really loud, I can slip on the picks and slam it.
P.S. Dennis Kamakahi gets a lot of "pick" sound with his playing but I find it mostly pleasing (on Ulili 'E for example).
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 01/14/2008 08:11:07 AM |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 08:43:34 AM
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Also, for real players (I like to watch)...
Picks offer one way of more aggressive playing on some demanding articualtions/rhythmic schemes...
not just louder, but on some aggressive tempos...
I've been listening to Doug Smith (a non-slack) but a great musican....
also on many others (slack too).
but I have enough trouble without picks....
and they do take adaption and more practice!
Not there yet, but am curious about benefits, and drawbacks...
And just when I think I got some nails goin'...
I bang one and lose my edge.
and then my wife say's, "you messin' with your nails again?"
"No dear, just checkin the carburator on our 350 Magnum Double Wheel Diesel Truck dear."
Then she knows I'm lyin', cause we own a Subaru...and even she knows that Diesels don't use carburators.
Geez, how do you spell Car-beer-ator?
Meanwhile, back at the beauty parlour... |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 08:53:28 AM
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I used to play with various thumbpicks because I thought they helped bring consistency to my bass lines in slack key. Then I had a private lesson with Ozzie and he pointed out that ALL my bass lines were TOO LOUD because I had no control over them. He showed me that with a properly trimmed and maintained thumbnail and good technique you can dampen the bass line with the flesh of the thumb or pull it to the fore with the thumbnail precisely when you want it to. That single observation and comment has helped me focus my playing and listen to the subtleties that make for better music -- I think.
If fingernails never broke and never grew we would all be very consistent and wouldn't need picks. Alas, this not the case, and forces us to practice and take care of our nails and/or use picks. When we first started playing we didn't really care much about what the guitar sounded like -- when we heard that something could sound better, we paid attention. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 09:15:20 AM
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Plastic and steel picks are way too noisy.
This is not perfectly on point but close enough for me to make a comment. For picky pickers :) that want silent finger picking, this is what I would recommend.
I have been using "Guitar Player Nails", the 1/2 nail plastic glue-on nails and they are fabulous. They feel like real nails and produce a very clean tone. Because the finger pad hits the string first, the string slides muted into the nail and there is no, or very little click.
However, I do get a click from my index finger. This is why: I discovered that there is a ridge of skin that has formed on the edge on MY nail bed. On that one finger it is ahead of the nail, so when the string slides over my finger pad it skips over the ridge and slingshots into the nail causing a click. It is a very small distance but enough to make a noise.
When I get this problem figured out I will have almost no clicks or noise.
http://guitarplayernails.com |
Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 01/14/2008 09:35:08 AM |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 1:52:45 PM
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One more thing to add:
quote:
If fingernails never broke and never grew we would all be very consistent and wouldn't need picks. Alas, this not the case, and forces us to practice and take care of our nails and/or use picks.
With "Guitar Player Nails", you will never be more than fifteen minutes away from another perfect nail. If something happens before a performance, no problem, just put on another nail. No need for an emergency set of picks.
One essential tip...
As you nails grow out, it is necessary to feather the natural nail back to keep it from hitting the string and causing a click. I suspect this could be what caused Hula Rider's click. An electric nail file ($25) is definitely needed to keep the real nail out of the way as it grows.
Hey, considering how easy it is to screw up a natural nail, and how badly finger style guitar players depend on thier nails, these artificial ones just make so much sense. In addition, there is no learning curve or stroke adjustments to make because they are nearly undetectable on the finger. |
Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 01/14/2008 2:30:21 PM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 3:22:46 PM
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An electric nail file
An electric nail file? Hoo boy, you've just topped the electric swizzle stick I bought Keola for his birthday. (Don't tell him, it's a surprise..)
Oh, here's one reason to use thumb picks: muting the bass. Great sound when done by Led-- or Merle Travis. |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 3:46:34 PM
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Yeah Mark, it does sound kinda funny doesn't it!
It conjures up visions of a reciprocating "sawz-all". It is in fact like a dremmel with a small conical bit.
A sawz-all with a reciprocating file attachment should be used only when you are in a hurry. I'm thinking it should be gas powered too. LOL
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Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 01/14/2008 3:47:18 PM |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2008 : 11:29:13 PM
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| -I even have the electric face washer. It has a little round brush attachment and goes round and round to scrub your face for that beautiful, smoothe, rosy complexion. (The rose part comes in when it sands your face down to the endothelium), And I have one of those electric nail files. It also has buffer attachment for the shiny nails. My podiatrist uses a dremel moto tool for fixing all the ugly feet that come his way. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2008 : 07:52:03 AM
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DANG CHICKIFICATION! 
Man, it's bad enough that I worry about my nails because I play fingerstyle guitar and my MANLY  friends look at me funny. Think what having chickified electric tools would do - NO WAY - ELECTRIC NAIL FILE? 
(Only if it was made by DEWALT or I could find it in the SEARS Tool Department!) |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2008 : 10:59:57 AM
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Well,
You can lead a man to "chickification" but I guess you realy can't make him "chick-ify".
Your post put a smile on my face for sure.
Good luck in your quest to remain manly  |
Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 01/15/2008 11:05:37 AM |
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