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alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
 Posted - 02/02/2008 : 04:48:03 AM
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Aloha mai kakou...
I just have a question pertaining to handling the 'okina when you sing.
Obviously in falsetto singing, if there's an 'okina, one must do a litteral glottal, meaning that you hear the throat close and the vocal folds snap to make the ha'i sound.
However, my voice teacher, who specializes in classical and opera singing, said to just do a little pause instead of an actual break when I sang the phrase "ku'u aloha" from "Ke Kali Nei Au."
So my question is what do Hawaiian singers do typically to emphasize the 'okina? Does it depend on the style that the singer is singing in?
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He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2008 : 07:47:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hawaiianmusicfan138
Aloha mai kakou...
I just have a question pertaining to handling the 'okina when you sing.
Obviously in falsetto singing, if there's an 'okina, one must do a litteral glottal, meaning that you hear the throat close and the vocal folds snap to make the ha'i sound.
However, my voice teacher, who specializes in classical and opera singing, said to just do a little pause instead of an actual break when I sang the phrase "ku'u aloha" from "Ke Kali Nei Au."
So my question is what do Hawaiian singers do typically to emphasize the 'okina? Does it depend on the style that the singer is singing in?
The driving factor is the tempo of the song.
If the song is moving along too rapidly to hit all of the glottal stops along the way, it is perfectly acceptable to a) soften the glottal stop along the way so it doesn't get in the way of meter or b) elide or lengthen the double vowel instead of a glottal stop. As for the latter, you will often hear the two u`s in ku`u become one longer one or the a's in ka `aina become one longer one. This is perfectly acceptable since - as in any language - context tells the listener what you mean.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 6:59:50 PM
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I'll respectfully disagree with Bill. I don't think anyone I know or work with would consider omission of the 'okina acceptable even if you can deduce the meaning from context. If you listen to some of the classic performers of falsetto you will hear them use it, even in fast passages. In slower passages a pause would work, as long as you can clearly hear the separation of the vowels. In slower passages, the glottal should emphasize the attack on the second vowel, not necessarily the break at the end of first.
I just listened to the Ho‘opi‘i Brothers singing "Aloha Ku'u Home I Kahakuloa" and the 'okina is perfectly clear in "ku'u", "ho'okipa" and other places. It can be done, obviously. |
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Hula Rider
Lokahi
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 8:08:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hawaiianmusicfan138
Aloha mai kakou...
I just have a question pertaining to handling the 'okina when you sing.
Obviously in falsetto singing, if there's an 'okina, one must do a litteral glottal, meaning that you hear the throat close and the vocal folds snap to make the ha'i sound.
However, my voice teacher, who specializes in classical and opera singing, said to just do a little pause instead of an actual break when I sang the phrase "ku'u aloha" from "Ke Kali Nei Au."
So my question is what do Hawaiian singers do typically to emphasize the 'okina? Does it depend on the style that the singer is singing in?
Aloha e `Alika,
I was taught to sing the phrase as Keola describes it, and that is how I have always heard it sung by my kupuna.
Malama pono,
Leilehua |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 8:49:11 PM
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You can definitely hear it various ways--full glottal stop with emphasis, a short pause or run together syllables as in "ka 'aina"--in recorded Hawaiian music. Often, singing a full glottal stop while in the falsetto range (no break) can come across as a squeak and some singers smooth out that squeak by softening the glottal stop in some way because choking off, and restarting, the high flow of air, that powers the falsetto range, can't be done cleanly.
Jesse Tinsley |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 02:59:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by keoladonaghy
I'll respectfully disagree with Bill. I don't think anyone I know or work with would consider omission of the 'okina acceptable even if you can deduce the meaning from context. If you listen to some of the classic performers of falsetto you will hear them use it, even in fast passages. In slower passages a pause would work, as long as you can clearly hear the separation of the vowels. In slower passages, the glottal should emphasize the attack on the second vowel, not necessarily the break at the end of first.
I just listened to the Ho‘opi‘i Brothers singing "Aloha Ku'u Home I Kahakuloa" and the 'okina is perfectly clear in "ku'u", "ho'okipa" and other places. It can be done, obviously.
Duh, duh, DUH! Yes, all true. I apologize. I was thinking of a completely different convention.
I was taught that it is alright to elide the same vowel sound in instances like the following ("Na `Ono I`a Na Kupuna") when the vowel sound ending the last word is the same as the vowel sound beginning the next word and the tempo is too fast to get out all of the vowels:
Na ono i`a a nâ kûpuna
I`a kaulana o ka `âina
In the first verse, I was taught that "i`a a nâ kûpuna" could be sung instead by stressing the "a" at the end of "i`a" and moving straight into "nâ" and this is the way I most often hear it. Of course, the `okina in "i`a" is still sung clearly.
Oh, how I wish I could get rid of my previous post. I am a dope. I blame the mucous from my now three month virus for clouding my thought.
Kala mai?
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
Edited by - hwnmusiclives on 02/05/2008 03:43:02 AM |
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ypochris
Lokahi
USA
398 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 03:35:52 AM
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I wouldn't worry about "recreating the Hawaiian language accurately". Frankly, there are two forms of "Hawaiian"- native speakers and "University Hawaiian". Plus all the variations across the islands with the native speakers. Although they certainly appreciate the effort, often the "rules" of "University Hawaiian" make the native speakers laugh...
I remember in Hawaiian class an older lady who was raised in a Hawaiian speaking home- she wound up getting a "C" in the class because she couldn't break the habits she picked up from listening to her parents.
Frankly someone born and raised in England would not do well in a spoken English class in the United States. Languages vary across space and time, and rules set down in a book, be it a Hawaiian grammer or Webster's dictionary, are just the opinion of a few people in a certain place and time.
Chris
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ypochris
Lokahi
USA
398 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 1:05:31 PM
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My response doesn't really follow now that hwnmusiclives edited the prior post. Still haven't figured out how to edit- any tips?
Chris
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 5:10:41 PM
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Originally posted by ypochris
My response doesn't really follow now that hwnmusiclives edited the prior post. Still haven't figured out how to edit- any tips?
Chris
If you are logged in, you can edit a post by clicking on the icon with the pencil.
Sorry about the confusion. I wrote a post and then immediately edited it when I realized my mistake. You must have been logged in precisely when my original post hit because I edited it within two minutes.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 9:57:46 PM
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Bill - no need to apologize. I was a bit surprised with your post but figured either I misunderstood what you were saying or perhaps you did not express your thoughts in a way you intended.
Chris - I hear this all the time - regarding older folks not doing well in classes because they "heard" things differently when they were younger. In the spoken realm, sometimes it's true and sometimes it's not. I know many elderly Hawaiians who did not get the language passed to them by their parents but seem to "remember" what they sounded like. In a couple cases we actually have tapes of the family members and what they sounded like and the person's recollection did not align at all. In other cases, as you suggest, it has to do with regional differences.
In the context of sung performance, you only have to listen to the performance of native speakers who understand the full meaning and kaona of a song to know that the 'okina is not left off. There are situations, however, where you will hear an 'okina sung where it would not be heard in spoken Hawaiian. When you move up a generation and hear sung performances by those who did not grow up speaking Hawaiian, you will start to hear the 'okina being omitted, changes in the vowel sounds and mispronunciation. It's not that these people did not hear the 'okina used by their parents and kupuna, perhaps it was because English was their first language it perhaps did not register with them that the 'okina was a significant sound as it is not in English.
When you have spoken with as many native speakers and listened to as many recordings of native Hawaiians who were born while the Hawaiian monarchy was still alive, as some of us who speak "university Hawaiian" have, comments such as '"I wouldn't worry about "recreating the Hawaiian language accurately"' seem ludicrous. There is variation, yes, as there is in any language. But there are some aspects of grammar, pronunciation, and phrasing that are amazingly consistent. To take the way that one person or group of people speaks the language as gospel is wrong. The key is to listen to and converse with, if you can, as many speakers from a broad a spectrum as possible. Sadly, it is becoming increasingly difficult. |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 01:54:18 AM
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Originally posted by keoladonaghy
When you have spoken with as many native speakers and listened to as many recordings of native Hawaiians who were born while the Hawaiian monarchy was still alive, as some of us who speak "university Hawaiian" have, comments such as '"I wouldn't worry about "recreating the Hawaiian language accurately"' seem ludicrous. There is variation, yes, as there is in any language. But there are some aspects of grammar, pronunciation, and phrasing that are amazingly consistent.
In the post I modified above (which caused great confusion to ypochris) I expressed concerned that the correct use of the language on a Hawaiian music CD is of critical importance because that CD is going to be on store shelves and in libraries for an eternity. If these are the only exposure to the Hawaiian language that some ever have and then they go off singing these sings, we will only perpetuate the laziness and inaccuracy.
I love every one of my vintage Hawaiian music recordings. But because of what you describe here, Keola, I have had to learn many songs twice - because I could not reconcile what I heard on the record with what was printed in liner notes (many of which did not have `okina and kahako in an earlier time, either). And then there are the discoveries made through serious research that tend to be ignored. Keola, you made one such revelation that I live and die by now. One of the staples of my repertoire has always been A`oia. Most people sing this...
Na`u oe, na`u `oe e lei
But from examining Uncle John Almeida's original manuscripts and recordings, Keola discovered that the composer actually intended this...
Na`u oe, na`u no e lei
Now when I sing it correctly, people I am performing with look at me like I'm crazy and go so far as to tell me I'm wrong. When I explain the above recent discovery, the usual response I receive is apathy. "Well, we're used to singing it this way now."
In another thread on this forum, we bemoan the fact that liner notes are incomplete when they lack lyrics and translations and the additional expense that goes into creating these responsibly. I contend that if the artist does not speak Hawaiian, the money that might be used on liner notes would be better spent having language experts proof the sung Hawaiian on the CD and having the artist correct the mistakes on the CD before it gets into libraries and store shelves.
With no disrespect intended to any particular artist, we could spend days listing some not so comical inaccuracies in modern Hawaiian music recordings.
On a popular version of Pauoa Ka Liko Lehua by Kapena that I hear on KINE daily, they insert some unexpected beef jerky:
I ka lawe ha`aheo a ka pipikaula
(That should be ka kikala.)
On a version of Ipo Hula by Kai Ho`opi`i (son of a singing legend mentioned elsewhere here), he sings:
No ke aloha pili paha
Pili hemolele
(That should be hemo`ole.)
And with apologies to Ken Makuakane (who produced this one), I don't believe there are two correct words in a row on Analaikalani's version of Ku`u Sweetie.
How do recordings with such grievous errors of language get nominated for Na Hoku Hanohano Awards? If we continue to reward this, it will continue to happen.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 03:15:06 AM
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In Eddie Kamae's film "Sons of Hawai`i", he was conversing with Don McDiarmid about Gabby's usage of Hawaiian language. He said tutu ladies would call him up and complain about Gabby fracturing the `olelo, but gracious as ever, saying, "I'm sure he meant no disrespect" or "I'm sure he didn't do it on purpose". However, how can you fault the earlier generations for their lack of language skills when their parents and grandparents generations were forbidden to speak the language. I remember in Ray Kane's film "Kiho`alu", he said he went to school and the teacher smacked him for speaking Hawaiian and he went home and his father smacked him for speakiing English. So he packed up his clothes in a bundle and left to live on the beach. That is a prime example of how that generation was caught in the middle. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. I am just glad that there is "university" Hawaiian to now try to make things pono. Bottom line, if you have kupuna who are native speakers, talk to them, learn from them. They are a precious resource.
The Hula Preservation society is talking to the kupuna who are hula experts and recordiing them for posterity (as funds are available). There are wonderful experts out there who are aging and maybe soon will not be with us on this earthly plane. They are usually very happy to share their expertise and mana`o. Use this valuable resource. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 04:32:54 AM
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Originally posted by wcerto
In Eddie Kamae's film "Sons of Hawai`i", he was conversing with Don McDiarmid about Gabby's usage of Hawaiian language. He said tutu ladies would call him up and complain about Gabby fracturing the `olelo, but gracious as ever, saying, "I'm sure he meant no disrespect" or "I'm sure he didn't do it on purpose". However, how can you fault the earlier generations for their lack of language skills when their parents and grandparents generations were forbidden to speak the language. I remember in Ray Kane's film "Kiho`alu", he said he went to school and the teacher smacked him for speaking Hawaiian and he went home and his father smacked him for speakiing English. So he packed up his clothes in a bundle and left to live on the beach. That is a prime example of how that generation was caught in the middle. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. I am just glad that there is "university" Hawaiian to now try to make things pono. Bottom line, if you have kupuna who are native speakers, talk to them, learn from them. They are a precious resource.
The Hula Preservation society is talking to the kupuna who are hula experts and recordiing them for posterity (as funds are available). There are wonderful experts out there who are aging and maybe soon will not be with us on this earthly plane. They are usually very happy to share their expertise and mana`o. Use this valuable resource.
Excellent points, but I'm talking about another generation. There was a period during which it appeared to become increasingly important to the kupuna that the youngsters sing the language correctly. Regrettably, in many cases it was after the recorded product already was released (or perhaps we should say "escaped"). But there are stories of Auntie Alice Namakelua reaming out Robert and Roland for poor pronunciation. (Auntie Alice had a field day on the boys after they recorded Uncle Eddie's "Morning Dew." Much of it is just plain wrong. But it remains one of their "Greatest Hits.") Such criticisms even appeared in the record review columns in the newspapers! But who is writing a review these days that says "sounds great, but this group needs to work on their langauge skills?"
There are any number of language experts who would gladly offer assistance on a recording project. I am never more pleased than when I see a CD with a credit to the "Hawaiian Language Consultant" and those who care call in the heavy-hitters: Puakea Nogelmeier, Noelani Mahoe, Tony Conjugacion, Keawe Lopes, Robert Cazimero, Manu Boyd, or that guy with the Irish last name. (You know the one!) Yes, sure, in most cases these artists and language experts are friends and probably doing the work gratis. But if an artist really cares, there are (or, at least, there were) services that would do this kind of review for a fee.
What bothers me is that there seem to be a great many artists who don't care if they get it right or not. With so many resources abounding, why would anyone release a product that hasn't been "endorsed?" The only reasons that come to mind are arrogance or indifference - both largely unacceptable.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 06:37:40 AM
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| Bill - agree wholeheartedly. Now keep in mind I am speakinig from a haole mainlander perspective, but I would think that anyone who speaks of native Hawaiian rights, about restitution, about sovereignty, about Hawaiian pride would be people who have made a point, both culturally and politically, to study, learn, and speak the Hawaiian language properly. How can you expect people to take you seriously when you complain about takiing your heritage and culture away if you PERSONALLY are not proud enough of your culture to learn the language. Properly. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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keoladonaghy
Lokahi
257 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 8:00:13 PM
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Wanda - as much as I would like to agree with your statement regarding certain groups of people needing to learn the language, I really can't. If you've learned a second language after childhood you realize how difficult it is to do, and the time and commitment required to do so. As much as I would love to have everyone in the state learn the language well, most are challenged with the realities of life here - work (sometimes multiple jobs), 'ohana and other commitments. It is different for those involved in Hawaiian arts like music and hula, where the language is an integral part of the practices. The climate is changing, particularly with the number of students now graduating from the immersion schools and Kamehameha with high levels of fluency in Hawaiian, and who have interests outside the language - the sciences, technology, law, politics, medicince - and will bring the perspective they obtained with their proficiency in the language to those fields.
Bill: You're right, we're fighting a battle against the many poorly pronounced recordings that are heard on radio and are available for purchase. Your example regarding 'A'oia is a good one and I was amazed at the number of JKA's songs that have changed since he first recorded them. Regarding newspaper reviews exposing the kings for having no clothes, unfortunately none of the current flock of newspaper reviewers speak the language, so they don't know better. I've done it on occasion but prefer to work quietly behind the scenes to help people when I can. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I spoke to Iz once a few years before he passed away, and he made it clear that language accuracy wasn't a bit deal to him, and I never brought it up again. I didn't see any value in chastising him in pubic for it.
It may not seem that way, but it is getting better, slowly, but progress is being made, I believe. Unfortunately radio stations will keep playing music that sounds good even if the language is being butchered in the process, and the public will keep buying (or pirating) the recordings. |
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alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 12:54:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives
quote:
Originally posted by keoladonaghy
I'll respectfully disagree with Bill. I don't think anyone I know or work with would consider omission of the 'okina acceptable even if you can deduce the meaning from context. If you listen to some of the classic performers of falsetto you will hear them use it, even in fast passages. In slower passages a pause would work, as long as you can clearly hear the separation of the vowels. In slower passages, the glottal should emphasize the attack on the second vowel, not necessarily the break at the end of first.
I just listened to the Ho‘opi‘i Brothers singing "Aloha Ku'u Home I Kahakuloa" and the 'okina is perfectly clear in "ku'u", "ho'okipa" and other places. It can be done, obviously.
Duh, duh, DUH! Yes, all true. I apologize. I was thinking of a completely different convention.
I was taught that it is alright to elide the same vowel sound in instances like the following ("Na `Ono I`a Na Kupuna") when the vowel sound ending the last word is the same as the vowel sound beginning the next word and the tempo is too fast to get out all of the vowels:
Na ono i`a a nâ kûpuna
I`a kaulana o ka `âina
In the first verse, I was taught that "i`a a nâ kûpuna" could be sung instead by stressing the "a" at the end of "i`a" and moving straight into "nâ" and this is the way I most often hear it. Of course, the `okina in "i`a" is still sung clearly.
Oh, how I wish I could get rid of my previous post. I am a dope. I blame the mucous from my now three month virus for clouding my thought.
Kala mai?
'A'ole pilikia! |
He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
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