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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
 Posted - 03/02/2003 : 8:50:14 PM
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Never thought I'd be writing this.
Thanks everyone for the e mail. On TaroPatch, I'm the best lookin' one in the middle, with my arm around my Auntie Liz.
My Father is in the cool shades on the right, he fills in as my bass player, at least for that one. The others in the picture, I deny even knowing them.
Alive, well, and living in suburbia...
I am, |
my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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Crotalus
Aloha
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 12:15:36 AM
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| Hey, I've been playing California Slack and didn't know it. . . |
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Bill Campbell
Akahai
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 08:16:38 AM
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| It might be beneficial for some members to know that the 'California Slack' that cmdrpiffle refers to is simply Taro Patch (D-G-D-G-B-D) with all 6 strings lowered another 2 frets. It is used very often by the Dancing Cat artists, but their liner notes generally just refer to it as Taro Patch. In a like manner, on 3 cuts of my CD, I guess I could call the tuning Virginia Slack, but in actuality it is only 'California Slack' with all 6 strings lowered yet another fret, resulting in (B-E-B-E-G#-B). So, my tuning is, in essence, Open E, and 'California Slack' is simply Open F, just at Taro Patch is Open G. You can tune your guitar to 'California Slack', then put a capo in the 2nd fret and get immediate Taro Patch whenever you wish. Since this website is (I think) devoted to sharing, it would be nice if all of us could share our little secrets and our knowledge with all the rest of us. |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 10:09:50 AM
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Actually, I'm the one who dubbed it "California Slack" as a humorous homage to the title of Piffle's song.
BTW, Bill, do you want to volunteer one of your songs for SoundClick?
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Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Bill Campbell
Akahai
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 10:39:23 AM
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Yes, Craig, we can do that if you wish. You can download 3 of the songs anyway at Amazon.com, so you might wish to copy one or more of them to our SoundClick page. Maybe we should start with just 'Ku'u Kumu Hal', since the tablature has already been posted on taropatch.net. You can download it from this URL.
And, it is played in Taro Patch (D-G-D-G-B-D) tuning.
Regarding the tunings, regardless of the names given to them, I know that it is frustrating for someone trying to duplicate a song or part of a song that they hear on a recording, and it doubly difficult if their guitar is tuned differently than the recording. I have spent many hours listening to all of the Dancing Cat and other published artists, and many times there are shall we say 'misprints' in the liner notes when it comes to stating the tunings for a particular song. That is why I make an effort to explain the mechanics of any song I compose or play, including the tuning. It may be a good topic for another forum, but there are many artists who, for whatever reason, would prefer to keep their tunings private (job security?), and some amount of coyness or deception creeps into the information exchange.
That is why I was pleased to see the question from one of the members about the tunings. And I will be equally pleased to see all of the members sharing that information with the others. Wasn't that a nice gesture of Andy to say that he would be happy to teach other members his song. And, by the way, all of the music that I have heard so far has been super.
quote:
Originally posted by cpatch
Actually, I'm the one who dubbed it "California Slack" as a humorous homage to the title of Piffle's song.
BTW, Bill, do you want to volunteer one of your songs for SoundClick?
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Crotalus
Aloha
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 3:45:45 PM
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| I definitely agree that it's hard to copy or learn songs from the Pro's CDs even with the little jacket note showing the tuning. There are always those certain "licks" that I can't figure out. |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 5:36:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Campbell
I have spent many hours listening to all of the Dancing Cat and other published artists, and many times there are shall we say 'misprints' in the liner notes when it comes to stating the tunings for a particular song. <snip> there are many artists who, for whatever reason, would prefer to keep their tunings private (job security?), and some amount of coyness or deception creeps into the information exchange.
I wonder whether (within the boundaries of tact and discretion) you could expand a bit on this. While I've come across echoes (mostly pretty faint) of the old secretiveness about some matters, I haven't seen anything like the proprietary behavior that Keola recalls from his childhood in the mango tree story (not to be confused with Uncle Ray's fish-trading story).
I ask because one of the themes of the book I'm writing is the survival and transmittal of the tradition, and my informants (which include most of the Dancing Cat artists) all seem to have explicitly embraced the kind of openness that started with Leonard Kwan publishing his tunings on LP liner notes; Leonard and Keola writing their instruction books; and Auntie Alice, Sonny, Ray, and others teaching slack key.
About the accuracy of the tunings listed on Dancing Cat CDs--I've mostly tried learning from the Ray Kane and Sonny Chillingworth releases, and the main discrepancy I've noticed is that Ray tunes taro patch down a whole tone to F, a pretty common practice. Generally I'd trust George Winston and Jay Junker's meticulousness--if you've ever seen George's cross-indexed list of recorded tunings you know what I mean.
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Bill Campbell
Akahai
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 6:07:17 PM
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Well, Russell, I don't know whether to say that I am glad you asked or sorry you asked. In any event, I will be very pleased to give you the results of my experience with playing along with the recordings of the masters, and finding out that the tuning and or key that the liner notes say are NOT, sometimes not even close to, the same as what is being played. I have compiled a list. Would you like for me to give it to you privately or post it in this forum?
quote:
Originally posted by Russell Letson
I have spent many hours listening to all of the Dancing Cat and other published artists, and many times there are shall we say 'misprints' in the liner notes when it comes to stating the tunings for a particular song. there are many artists who, for whatever reason, would prefer to keep their tunings private (job security?), and some amount of coyness or deception creeps into the information exchange.
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 6:24:00 PM
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My assumption would be that any liner note inaccuracies would be errors/typos and not deliberate acts of deception. I do not see any harm in posting your findings in an open forum. For one, it allows others to agree or disagree with your findings. Also, I think that Dancing Cat would be open to being alerted to any errors.
Of course, the decision is entirely yours. If you don’t post here, I’d suggest at least forwarding your list to Dancing Cat. No need to perpetuate mistakes. |
Andy |
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Bill Campbell
Akahai
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 7:20:04 PM
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I will let you start out by checking out what I have found and please let me know when you have detected an error. By the same token, please let me know if your findings are the same as mine. When I became infatuated with slack key music in the winter of 1996-97, I purchased every slack key CD or tape that I could find. The greatest frustration I had in trying to play along with them was the 'typos' in the liner notes. I have taken lessons in accordion, voice, saxophone, guitar, and piano, taught lessons in piano and guitar, and I have been involved in music since I was 8 years old. I own a Clavinova (electric piano), 2 keyboards, 10 guitars, an alto saxophone, and an accordion. I say this to let you know in advance that I have many ways to determine what key a song is being played in - not which tuning, what key. So, we will start with that. Let's begin with Uncle Raymond's 'Punahele'. You can find the liner notes at this URL.
Now, you will observe that the liner notes state, "Ray plays this song in the G Major tuning, as he does on all but two songs on this recording. Often called Taro Patch tuning, the notes used are D-G-D-G-B-D, from lowest to highest pitched string". Well, if you listen to the CD, you will observe that none of the songs is played in D-G-D-G-B-D. Try playing with some of the songs and tell me if I am wrong. What they MEANT to say was that 8 of the songs are played in Taro Patch tuning, with all 6 strings slacked another half-tone, so that the resulting pitch is Gb, and 2 others are Taro Patch tuning, with all 6 strings dropped 2 frets, so that the resulting pitch, or key, is F (This is what Craig has dubbed 'California Slack'. The other 2 songs are correctly described as G Wahine (Punahele) and D Wahine (Nani Ho'omana'o). Before you protest that Taro Patch is not just Open G (D-G-D-G-B-D) but all of the tunings resulting from lowering further, or raising as is the case with many artists, the tuning, you will have a lot of authors to fuss with who assert that Taro Patch means only D-G-D-G-B-D, not C-F-C-F-A-C or other variants. Play with this one for awhile. I perform here locally, and I have to leave now, but I will share many other examples with you tomorrow. For a head start, go and fetch Sonny's CD 'Sonny Solo' and see how the liner notes compare to the actual tuning. Try for example, to play the first cut 'Moe 'Uhane' in Taro Patch. If it doesn't work, try putting a capo in the first fret to make it Ab, and you will be able to play with him. I am not telling you anything that George Winston doesn't already know. I am telling you so that you won't have to go through the frustrations that I went through in order to recognize these typos. More later. Aloha for now, Bill
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kihoalukid
Lokahi
USA
289 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 8:30:43 PM
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| i havent found any incorrect tunings so far listed on the DC recordings, i certainly havent tried playing along with all of them. i understand that the failure to mention that the tunings may be lowered or raised from standard pitch might cause confusion, i never really gave it a second thought though.to me, whether the pitch is lowered or raised, the tunings still remain taropatch, leonards c, etc, its the intervals that make the tunings, not the pitch of the notes, not technically correct i guess, but thats the way ive always thought of it. (does that make sense or have i inhaled too much drywall dust?) |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 8:47:36 PM
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Funny, I've been sniffing the drywall stuff too -- (bathroom remodel)
nevertheless - I agree with "the kid" -- It is much more important for me to get the right intervals. In that sense, F Taro Patch, A Taro Patch, shapings are similar. Now playing wise, it would make a bigger difference if the song were played in C Wahine and written up as G Taro Patch. (Actually, a couple of recording engineers I know always tell their solo guitarists to tune up a half step for a brighter and better recording sound - don't really know how common that is.
When I try to "copy" a song, I first go for the melody - and it doesn't really matter what tuning is being played to get that. That , and my ear, usually gives me some hint at what the chords are. However, there are times when I will play a song in G Taro Patch and change the chords to work with the tuning. For me, the melody is key, the rest gets figured out by how it sounds to me. It's only a problem if I'm playing with others -- and then we just have to get on the same page, but oin truth I don't play with others except for worked out duets and trios all too often.
Nonetheless, I would like to hear more from Bill, just in case it becomes an issue for me. Knowledge never hurts.
Raymond
San Jose, CA |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 8:50:19 PM
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Bill has brought up an interesting point for discussion. Given the way we think slack key started and developed, I think the names associated with various tunings more specifically define the intervals. Since slack key was often backup to singing, it is likely that tunings were altered in order to sing more comfortably in a singer's preferred key. My guess anyway.
On the other hand, we often see taro patch referred to as "G Major 'Taro Patch' tuning" so maybe the problem lies in how we define this folk tradition in print? |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 10:43:35 PM
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You're right in that George Kahumoku jr. and Keola Beamer have both said that the tunings in fact developed primarily to fit vocal ranges and preferences. In addition, at least George considers "Taro Patch" is a valid name for not only the G Major, but any tuning using the same string pattern. He has often said to me that he thinks the tunings should be called "F Taro Patch", "G Taro Patch" etc.
Raymond
San Jose |
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slackkey
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 10:46:04 PM
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 Congratulations All You Mailand Slackers!
It's me Bill (slackkey)! I haven't visited here in a while, and was surprised to see alot has happened! Wow! I listened to all your cuts....You "Kiho'alu Slackers are all HOT! HOT! HOT! in my book! Keep-up the awesome work Craig! All of you... especially you "Bruddah" Keith...and Andy! I look forward for us to meet again, and JUS'PRESS Waihe'e Maui Style! And this invitation is opened to all of you on the "Big Island of the Mainland"! Let us all....continue to perpetuate Kiho'alu"...For those who are just learning....keep going and never give up!....We all at one time started off just like you. But we kept on going! Remember....keep it simple.....relax....don't try too hard to sound like someone else....Be spontaneous! Feel the music...come up with a style that is your own. Take care and God Bless...A Hui Hou! Malama Pono....
Bill |
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