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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
 Posted - 05/06/2008 : 08:13:52 AM
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I agree. My friend Art Akina goes sort of ballistic when he hears the wrong chords in Pō Laʻi Laʻi. He went over and over this chord progression with me so I would get it right. He learned it by the way from his uncle Kahauanu Lake. So the music as well as the lyrics are important to the song. More so is the passing down of oral tradition. I wrote before that in the 70 years that Hawaiian language usage was discouraged in Hawaiʻi Hawaiian music helped to preserve the language and it also kept alive a medium of communication. I did not elaborate that many Hawaiian musicians also lost the language and many mistakes started popping up in the songs. Again this is not a criticism just a statement of historical fact. If one loses the ability to speak a language the phrases of the song lose meaning and incorrect phrases begin to be passed on.
The renaissance in things Hawaiian also dictated that the mistakes were to be corrected. So people started going to Mary Pukuʻi and Aunty Alice for help. Genoa Keawe was running a little cultural center in Pauoa Valley when I met her since I signed up to learn from Aunty Alice. Genoa started this little school because she was also interested in correcting her own mistakes.
Listen to early Aunty genoa and later on after the 70ʻs and you will notice a marked difference in her recordings. Rbert Cazimero also went on to learn Hawaiian language to perpetuate the correctness in the language as sung and recorded. This is how most of us went hoʻopono i ka ʻolelo Hawaiʻi. It is no shame to attempt to be pono. But just keep in mind not all singers and performers go deep in there research so even today still get hema in the language.
I not one big time expert but I put in 5-6 years of concentrated study and I still get more for learn. I truly respect the ones who dedicate their life work to this. People like Keola Donaghy and Larry Kimura and Puakea Nogelmeir are on that list. I went to class with Kuʻuipo Kumukahi and we are classmates. She is one to listen too for correct pronunciation. Kealiʻi Reichel also went to school so his recordings are fairly reliable too.
I rarely go on like this but I just had to pay kudos to those who do have enough respect for Hawaiian culture to make sure to the best of their ability that they are pono. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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hapuna
Lokahi
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2008 : 08:15:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives
I did not respond previously to hapuna because I do not wish to incite a riot. But I can honestly say I did not understand the idea of "songs we enjoy whether we know/understand what the meaning is or not." Hawaiian music is an oral tradition. I don't know how one can claim to enjoy the song without knowing the meaning of the song. To me, this is akin to judging a book by its cover or a painting by its fancy gilded frame. The [i]content of Hawaiian music is the words. So I respectfully disagree with the assertion that "the meaning of the words may not be the meaning of the song." The song may have numerous meanings that lend themselves to numerous post-structuralist interpretations - that is, those the composer intended plus those we find in the poetry because of our own unique experiences which we bring to bear as we listen. But no level of meaning is possible without having the words right first. No matter what secondary and tertiary meanings one may find in the lyric, that is only possible when the literal lyric is accurate.
I have no argument with this I'm simply saying I often enjoy songs before I fully understand them. I really don't want to not try to learn the song cause I don't have all the words and meanings fully under my belt. |
hapuna
Seattle |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2008 : 1:34:36 PM
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When Mapuana and Kihei de Silva were here in Cleveland for our February hula workshop, we asked about musical artists who are correct with the language. They told us Na Palapalai, Bros. Cazimero (Robert is Mapu's hula brother and they uniki`d at the same time by Auntie Maiki Lake), Keali`i Reichel (Puakea keeps in him line, too!) and Ale'a are some. I canno remember all the folks they mentioned. but they also suggested we look on the CDs to see if they speak of a Hawaiian language consultant and from that you can pretty much tell how much importance was placed on accuracy of the language. If they tell you on the cover of the CD who the language consultant was, you may make your own informed judgement about the `olelo.
But now all this talk about the language leads us right back to one of those universal debates -- is it pono to play the traditional Hawaiian music for which there are mele with words, as instrumentals, i.e., Kaulana Na Pua, Hawai`i Aloha, etc., etc. I say if it has words, you are being like the emperor who really was nekkid, if you do the song without the words. The words and the melody were attached to each other for a very good reason. What if all the other stuff you liked was done only 50% -- half the babies being born would be dropped on the floor by the doctor. Only half of your clothes would get washed, half of your dirty dishes. You get only half of the opihi to eat -- only the shell half. Nah, nah. Go for the gusto, do the whole song the pono way. Purely my opinion spoken as a customer of the music, not as a musician.
Because when I play piano, I never sing along with. That comes from not being able to walk and chew gum at the same time. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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hapuna
Lokahi
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2008 : 4:50:24 PM
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| Again I don't disagree about getting the whole picture. Now we beat this horse pretty good. Where are the correct lyrics? |
hapuna
Seattle |
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Dee
Aloha
2 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2009 : 08:12:11 AM
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Does anybody have a translation of Kealohalani?
Mahalo,
Dee |
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GUke
Lokahi
188 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2009 : 1:53:05 PM
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Quote:
How does someone become inspired to perform a song that they do not understand the meaning behind? This is a common misstep among young performers of Hawaiian music. How many times have the kupuna said to me, "The song is not a vehicle for your vocal acrobatics. It is a story. If you don't know the story, you can't interpret the story, so don't sing the song."
I believe that at times a melody is so overpowering that it conveys an emotional response. I am a novice fan of opera. And most classical opera is not sung in English. Yet there are arias that can give you an idea of a gut feeling -- love , despair, joy. And as written in a popular song "the words get in the way."
So I will confess that I will perform a mele mostly because I like the melody or even the "hook". And because I enjoy Hawaiian mele and donʻt speak the language I will perform not often not knowing what I sing about. I do make the effort to pronounce correctly by listening to recordings and the advice of those who know. But as was pointed out earlier, some recordings are themselves not correct in pronunciation. And also as mentioned earlier, not playing the mele as was composed. Given the time, I may look at the translation of the song. Again accepting that paraphrasing may be used to try to convey the meaning. Translating word for word may not be possible. If you look at the blue Mele book see how many different translations there are for "Haʻina mai ka puana" . And if you can convey to the audience what the song is about it benefits them as well as helping you fill that hour of performing. As much as I can I try to be pono.
But when does artistic interpretation take place? Are you being pono:
1. If you donʻt perform a mele as was composed (or in an oral culture passed on down), do you have any business performing that song?
(What do you tell the kupuna if his passing down is incorrect? Iʻve been told "kupuna is never is wrong)
2. If when the mele was composed and music wasnʻt written for other instruments like bass, piano, or violin?
3. To sing falsetto when the composer did not intend the song to be sung in that fashion? Should Aunty Genoa have been scolded for beautifully holding that note so long in "Alika"?
4. To change the tempo?
5. To leave out verses or words in a mele, or to sing a mele 2-2-2 vs. 2-1-2 vs. 1-1-1?
6. To create hula for a mele, or to perform without hula if the mele was specifically written for hula?
I do respect those who researched and perform the song as written by the composer. There is value in knowing what was originally intended. But I also like, and at times donʻt. other artist renditions of a mele. Realistically no two voices are alike and no two musicians are alike. So no one is going to sound the same as the composer, or each other (maybe sometimes close). So for me I play Hawaiian influenced style music. And I will readily admit my music isnʻt truly authentic and traditional, although for some mele I try to achieve that.
I just really appreciated a Hawaiian Auntie who heard me sing and play. She had a smile on her face, and told her nephew that I wasnʻt singing it right. But she was open to that it may have been the way I learned it. I did not have the benefit of a kupuna. More so she could see and hear the feeling I had put into the mele. She knew it was coming from the heart.
--Wanda some people canʻt carry a tune and let their instruments be their voice. As in job situations sometimes half a body is better than nobody. IMHO itʻs pono for me.
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Genaro
Should I? Itʻs only $, and where Iʻm going itʻll burn or melt. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2009 : 3:27:07 PM
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Eh Genaro - you ARE pono, simply because of the questions you asked. I hear what you are saying about having the ability to sing or whether you let your instrument sing for you. I know for a fact I sing like one of them frogs Duke was talking about long time ago. That's why I would either sing in a group where someone cannot separate my voice from the others, or whether I only sing in private. And even with that, my singing is better than my instrumental capabilities.
But as you said, learn it bst you can the old way, pay respect to the mele as written. Once you have done a bit of research, once you understand the song, then go for it however you feel it. That is truly playing from the heart.
If you are going to sing it, though, my opinion is to make sure you are as correct as you can be about the `olelo. When in doubt about the words, after you have done your research and still have questions, Taro Patch is a wonderful resource for help. We have people who are scholars and kumu of the language who are more than ready to help.
It is purely my own personal tastes that I do not care for slack key instrumental recordings which are so jazzed up that they rearely resemble the pure and simple melodies that made me fall in love with the mele in the first place. Sometimes there are so many notes added that it is hard to even recognize the mele. I at first though that the instrumentals would be a good way for me to be able to sing a song and have some accompaniment. For the most part, though, it really does not work out that way, because the melody simply is not all there or is so twisted up in the instrumental calisthenics of the musician that I cannot figure out where the voice should go.
If you feel what you are doing is pono, then it is pono, otherwise your heart would tell you differently. You geddem. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 03/25/2009 3:27:44 PM |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2009 : 11:16:04 AM
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Interesting to come back to this topic almost a half year later or is it closer to one year? I forgot what I had written and also what Bill and Hapuna had to add. It is funny that this thread didn't kick up as much dust as the one about D. Ho or T. Carerra did. But it is true that respect to composers of Hawaiian music is a little different than other genre. It is not required to cover a song entirely as originally recorded but the intent the meaning and the notes of the melody are what should be adhered too. It is not as stringent as classical music which is played note for note as written. Many orchestras are criticized for not being able to do that. But the language in Hawaiian music is all important so accuracy of the lyrics are critical. I don't know if instrumental versions of songs are not pono since some songs have original melodies while other Hawaiian songs borrow other melodies. It has been said that the borrowing of a melody pays respect to the original song as well. I suppose that original melodies are often played as instrumentals since the songs may be beautiful sounding that way. Keola Beamer and his brother Kapono have recorded instrumental versions of their great grandmothers songs and have successfully conveyed the beauty of those songs. While some slack key songs would not sound right to have words written. How would one sing Opihi Moemoe?
Alas there are many opinions about this topic. But music as it is will always be changed by the musicians interpretation and desire to sound different and unique. These attempts at playing something different can and always will give rise to various discussions whether it is to critique or to laud the attempt. Most times I only know it is a lot like art. I don't know what something is but I like it all the same. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2009 : 1:32:48 PM
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Al, Wanda and Genaro- I’m so glad you resurrected this thread, since it deals with issues I was maybe a little shy to ask about, as a beginner.
I had all the same questions Genaro brought up, but I probably made the mistake of coping with those questions by entirely separating how I dealt with the language versus the music, when they are actually both part of the same mele.
As for language, I always had to approach a song from the point of view of someone who did not grow up hearing Hawaiian music or language and did not have ready access to folks like Al with the education and experience to answer questions. Therefore my rule for myself was always “don’t change anything ever.” If I heard different versions of a song in recordings or different pronunciations, I tried to find the intent of the haku mele, if that person had made a recording or had produced a written account. Otherwise, I pretty much just looked for the oldest recording possible or the recording of someone I knew to be a native speaker.
John Almeida has been a good source for me, since he was prolific both as a writer and as a performer (plus I like his songs). His recording of “Panini Pua Kea” includes his performance of the verses as a chant followed by a woman (probably Genoa Keawe) singing the entire mele-- interesting to compare intonation in chant and song. Likewise, his later recording of “Ua Noho Au A Kupa” begins with his speaking all the words of the mele at a normal conversational speed and tone (very fast to my untrained ear) followed by his singing of the same verses. That was certainly an eye-opener to me to hear the marked difference between pronunciation of some words in conversation versus in song.
There are still lots of gray areas where I don’t know what to do. If Almeida sings “i laila” using four beats but most modern singers use three beats in the same spot of the same song, which do I follow? Does anyone ever sing all the known verses of “Hi`ilawe”? If I sing the middle eight verses of “Ka Manu” only once, will Auntie Alice be frowning at me from somewhere up above?
When it comes to melody and chords, I’ve been more lax, but to be honest I didn’t know what a “chord” was until I started trying to learn guitar and `ukulele. My guitar teacher encourages improvisation (sorry—I know this is a uke thread, but I think the same issues apply). But where does improvisation stop and disrespectful tinkering begin?
-- “Coloring” a chord? (I mean using for example a C6 or C9 instead of a C.) [example: almost anyone]
-- Changing a major to a minor? [example: Maunalua’s “Sanoe”]
-- Adding an extra chord (or two or three) that was not there before? [example: Cyril’s “Sanoe”]
-- Removing a chord? [example: “Puamana” by most current recording artists, including Steven Espaniola, John Keawe, George Kahumoku and (oops) Daniel Ho]
-- Adding an entire measure or significantly altering the melody? [example: Led’s “Radio Hula” and “Ku`u Ipo Onaona”]
Again, I am not any of those great performers, so my choice so far has been to remain very conservative and not try to change chords (much), sticking as close to the original as I can.
But that leads me to wonder:
Is producing a slavish copy any more or less pono than offering a heartfelt personal interpretation of a mele? Should the mele be more of a living, breathing thing and less of a dusty template? Something tells me that experience may answer this for me. To those with experience and knowledge—I’d appreciate any advice you might offer.
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2009 : 3:30:02 PM
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| Youʻd be surprised at the amount of freedom one has in Hawaiian music. Interpretation and improv are OK but you canʻt change the words or pronunciation because basic meanings may become distorted and sometimes the entire meaning is lost. Musically as long as the player knows what they are trying to do it might be OK. One will always get scolded or criticized no matter what. but your question about I laila. It is pronounced I lyla and not ila ila as some people do. Even Johny did that it is the same with onaona pronounced onowna and not ona ona. It is related to how some Hawaiian words are pronounced in song or conversation. Not an esay task. But always ask if in doubt. Intros and outros are where the most freedom of creation seem to occur. You want to hear jazzy stuff listen to old timey Hawaiia music or George Helm or Kahauanu Lake Trio. Many jazzy Hawaiian songs are products of the time and the intent of the composer. Again Maddie Lam and Lena Machado wrote songs with complex chording so feel free to learn from those people. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2009 : 7:21:48 PM
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"Is producing a slavish copy any more or less pono than offering a heartfelt personal interpretation of a mele?"
We have to realize that by picking up a Hawaiian song, and doing your "interpretation" (whatever that means) you are not just adding or changing notes and chords. You are inserting your mainland viewpoint, your life experiences away from Hawaii and it's deep cultural touchstones into that song's life story. It's common that a mainlander takes a song, arranges to his taste, shares his "Hawaiian" music with people and in it you can hear the blues, the Kingston Trio, Leo Kottke, the Beatles or whatever their influences are. Although you may hear Hawaiians doing radical departures from the song's historic sound or rhythm, anyone can expect to be both criticized (and perhaps praised) by locals if you play around too much with a classic tune. Pono means showing respect, and I believe that means sticking to the roots of the music that you are merely borrowing for musical enjoyment. Music, in Hawai'i, is not just entertainment. It's a shared experience for the native peoples and reflects their strong attachment to the land and their dwindling culture.
I would also add that Hawaiian music is made up mostly of vocal songs, not solo instrumental guitar that is so popular under the heading of "slack key". The idea of instrumentalizing a song with the guitar is common, but only a very small part of the broad musical culture of Hawai'i.
Jesse Tinsley
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2009 : 10:55:27 PM
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This is why I so appreciate our Northcoast Hula Workshop. When you get a language expert like Puakea Nogelmeier or Kihei de Silva teaching you the language of the song and the meaning of the song, wow, how much more can you ask for. Coupling the song with the hula adds even more to the understanding of the mele. They have also taught us where the pronunciation may have been "bent" a bit to fit the structure of the melody. Mater of fact, in my opinion, cannot separate the mele from the hula -- they go together. Hula is a way of telling the story and helps the singer to recall the words of the chant or of the mele, especially with chants prior to written language.
But I have often wondered about mele such as Slack Key Hula. How can hula when you get no words? |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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mike2jb
Lokahi
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2009 : 07:44:17 AM
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Thanks, Jesse and Al.
Wanda- so interesting that you bring up your thoughts about not separating mele from hula. I attended a guitar class yesterday in which the subject of song tempo came up. Personally, I tend to make the unconscious error of playing faster and faster if I'm nervous or unsure, and the teacher commented that many songs tend to be improperly rushed. He said that when he performs he tries to imagine a hula dancer, even if there is not one actually there. Then he just sings the mele at the tempo that allows the imaginary dancer to make her steps without jerking, extend her arms fully without rushing, and move her hands with the grace required to tell the story. I'll have to try that some time. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2009 : 11:30:09 AM
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| Paul used to play his songs on the guitar faster and faster until he started playing for the hula halau. Better than a metronome, because the ladies will bip him on the head if he makes them do those uehe and ami faster and faster. But as discussed in other places on this forum, the matter of tempo is difficult when you play alone. Other players or dancers or even singers help you keep the proper time. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2009 : 4:37:58 PM
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Sometimes the emotion of the song makes me rush things, like I have to get it all out before it escapes, or drives me crazy. Playing alone you get away with that, and sometimes it makes for a dramatic device. Performing story songs is part news reporting, and part acting. The adrenalin factor gets in there, too. Playing with the dancers has forced me to be more disciplined than I had been.
Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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