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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
 Posted - 04/29/2008 : 08:41:51 AM
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For those of you with computers but no iPods... One of my favorite things to do is to rip a bunch of CDs and then reburn them to ONE CD in MP3 format. You can get upwards of 250 songs - maybe 20 CDs - on one new MP3 format CD-R. Then you can play that CD-R in the CD or DVD player attached to your home stereo/video system for continuous - seemingly forever - playback. I particularly like to hit the "RANDOM" button and see what happens.
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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ypochris
Lokahi
USA
398 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2008 : 08:52:25 AM
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I was just discussing this very issue with a friend on the phone a few days ago. He is just finishing up his first album- heavy metal, I'm afraid, not exactly my taste- and was debating with his brother/fellow band member distribution tactics. His brother had always wanted to get signed with a major label, but my friend felt a distribution deal would be better.
Anyway, he had been talking with a friend of his- from some metal band I had never heard of, but apparently they sold millions of albums in the day. Their latest release had sold 35,000 copies, all downloaded. My friend thought that was sad, but his friend said they had made more off of those 35,000 copies than they had made off of any of their other albums. Why? Minimal expenses, and 100% of income directly into their pockets.
Which reminded me of a Willie Nelson concert I attended years ago. I'm not really a country fan either, but every category of music has great performers and he is one. Willie said- "Don't buy my albums. I never made a dime off of any of them. All they do is bring people to my concerts. So come see me live, and to hell with the record companies".
Summinlidat, anyway...
Chris
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markwitz
`Olu`olu
USA
841 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2008 : 09:28:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ypochris
Which reminded me of a Willie Nelson concert I attended years ago. I'm not really a country fan either, but every category of music has great performers and he is one. Willie said- "Don't buy my albums. I never made a dime off of any of them. All they do is bring people to my concerts. So come see me live, and to hell with the record companies".
That's great......just as long as Willie is ridin' in the car with you when you want to hear "Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain". |
"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain |
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hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2008 : 09:28:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ypochris
Their latest release had sold 35,000 copies, all downloaded. My friend thought that was sad, but his friend said they had made more off of those 35,000 copies than they had made off of any of their other albums. Why? Minimal expenses, and 100% of income directly into their pockets.
The economic pie of the recording industry truly does not favor the most important element: the artist. Radiohead turned the industry on its ear last year with a release available only by download for which they let the customer - their fan base - choose how much they wanted to pay. They say that the price paid for the entire album downloaded ranged from a paltry $1 for the entire album to upwards of $20 from the most deranged (or appreciative) fans. All tolled, Radiohead made more on this release than on any previously. Oh, and then they later released it on CD for which many of the same buyers bought it again just to have it on their shelf.
quote:
Which reminded me of a Willie Nelson concert I attended years ago. I'm not really a country fan either, but every category of music has great performers and he is one. Willie said- "Don't buy my albums. I never made a dime off of any of them. All they do is bring people to my concerts. So come see me live, and to hell with the record companies".
Artists such as Stevie Wonder and Michael MacDonald have said the same thing. In fact, Stevie doesn't even balk at the theft of his music through illegal downloading but, rather, sees it as an avenue to listeners he was never able to reach before.
It's all a matter of perspective...
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Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2008 : 11:49:55 AM
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Darin’s initial inquiry was open ended and the replies reflect this. The topic definitely shows our age and clearly shows how we are not really aware of or connected to the revolution that has taken place within the music industry as of late. The first thing I learned about the music industry is that it is always the artist who gets screwed, I have never forgotten this lesson..
The RIAA annual report measures actual sales of product and is used to measure growth or loss by those members of the RIAA. What it cannot measure accurately or even estimate is the affect of unauthorized copying upon the industry members of major labels and major independents. Do any of us care? Not really. That is unless we have a vested interest as an artist or music business owner.
Most of us for the greater part of our lives viewed music from the perspective of a consumer of music regardless of the package in which it was delivered. Whether it was downloaded, broadcast or sold as vinyl, cassette or CD, music was a commodity we never really thought about. As end users with discretionary money we just paid for the music, because that is how our generation was raised. But how times have changed.
At no other time in history has such a diverse selection of music been offered for sale and stolen outright by end users (instead of the labels?). This is just the reality of digitization of product and the growth of the Internet. It is so easy to make unauthorized copies of a CD, and depending upon your bandwidth, through peer-to-peer networking, a clone of musical product can be made in seconds and an artist and his company would be none the wiser.
Obviously, one the dynamics of the Internet is that it is not only being used as a source of information but it is also being used for online merchandizing. In business there is a constant process of natural selection going on. Although there are very real movements by multinational corporations to set up monopolies (iTunes), distribution of product is no longer centralized. Digitization and peer-to-peer networking in whatever form have leveled the playing field for distribution of virtual product. In a sense the Internet has democratized the creation, production and sale of product to the point where anybody can play. This is a new frontier so to speak. The music industry has always been a crapshoot, but now it’s kind of like the Wild West -- where anything goes and no one can predict which direction it may take.
In order to survive a business has to be able to adapt to changing conditions. The old way of doing business in the music industry is changing because it has too in order to remain viable and efficient. The older established companies whether they are multinational corporations or not, are hierarchical in structure. And because of their size and structure, they are not able to change easily and would rather resist change for as long as possible. Therefore the multitude of copyright and unfair business practice suits being filed by the majors against the upstarts and peer-to-peer networks, because they are a real threat. But the majors have to change or die.
For my product sales I will be using the Internet. As a small business owner, teacher and artist I welcome the opportunity to receive a greater percentage of the profits. I see the benefits of having both real and virtual product for sale. Given the conditions a small artist like myself faces, I realize that I need to have product in both forms. Now I don’t have to keep a large inventory of real product. However, I am also appalled at the rampant and unauthorized copying that is going on, but I know that in order to survive I have to suck it up and adapt to the new environment.
PM
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2008 : 3:25:22 PM
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Reid, (be forewarned, no one else may be interested in this post. If you're not interested, just skip it, ok?)
Here's my beef with Gould -- it is on 2 scores. First of all, his style of not performing live, but releasing heavily edited or worked over recordings had, IMO, a lot to do with moving classical music in general in that direction. As Bill mentioned above, technically perfect albums, or something like that, seriously skews our musical expectations. I still would prefer an exciting live recording, or ones which are very lightly edited - for example, the Guilini recordings with the CSO.
The more serious beef, however, goes like this -- and Gould is one of the most important early exponents of this approach so he sort of symbolizes it for me, although there are more egregious examples. (Don't let me start on Solti, master ruiner of the CSO) There's a fine line between interpreting a work and expropriating it. An interpretation helps me here a new aspect of what is latent in the music. However, it is still hearing Back, etc. etc. An expropriating "interprets" the work so much that I'm hearing the interpreter more than the composer. Gould's Variations are indeed exciting, but, to me, they are more Gould than Bach. Furthermore, they spawned another generation of artists interpreting Gould and getting further away from Bach, and then applying Gould to Hayden, etc. Hope this is understandable. I realize this gets into taste, but it is not just a matte of taste. To prove that however, we would have to sit down with a couple of recording and the scores. Not how you can still go round and round between von Ksarajan and Toscanini, for example, but listening to most of their work, you get the feeling that both of them are still trying to bring out the truth of their music. In contrast, listen to much of Solti. Exciting for sure, bit you get the impression that he is trying to stamp his impression, his ego, on top of the reality the composer left us. I recently went to a Michael Tilsen Thomas Brahms 4th. Pure MTT. Unfortunately not pure Brahms. I have not been a great fan of purist early music groups, like Harnencourt, but am more and more drawn towards them in reaction to a lot of what is going in in concert halls. |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2008 : 5:47:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RJS
First of all, his style of not performing live, but releasing heavily edited or worked over recordings had, IMO, a lot to do with moving classical music in general in that direction.
At the same time, consider that what he was doing in the recording studio was highly innovative for his time. As a musician, he found a way to use the recording studio as an instrument; listen to his radio documentaries for the CBC to get an example of how "musical" audio editing could be. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2008 : 6:28:09 PM
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I have.
I still think it set the wrong direction for recording. |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 02:43:10 AM
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Thanks for your views, Raymond. Actually, I think it should be of interest to many here, as we have had this discussion in other threads about slack key - although, as Peter said we are having 2 discussions (at least) in this thread. It illuminates the fact that many, if not most, forms of music move in the same directions.
Come to think of it, it is not really divorced from Peter's issue. Gould was creating in the studio a "virtual", to use Peter's word, product, which was sold without live performance. So, there are many levels on which music is purveyed, live performance being the most difficult for the artist and the most enjoyable for the listener. The bleed-over into live performance of the ego/innovation driven modification of compositions by people like your MTT, is not so different than our other discussions of slack key changing into whatever performers change it into.
BTW, the music by Harnencourt, and other originalists, was not just adherence to the original composition, but also involved original instruments which produce a much different sound than modern ones. I was lucky enough to be at a tutorial/recital here at Yale in which original/ancient stringed instruments (from Yale's collection) were played and then a modern instrument of excellent quality was used to play the same piece by the same artist. Very different, and to me, more pleasing sound with the old ones. It gave the phrase "pear shaped tones" concrete meaning.
...Reid |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 06:42:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RJS
I still think it set the wrong direction for recording.
Perhaps it did, perhaps it didn't - that's not something that can ever be answered one way or another, as it's reflective of personal taste. (So please understand - I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you - just giving another perspective.)
I'm sure no one at the time thought "uh oh - this is going to take us down the wrong path." You could say the same thing about every single innovation in music, recording technology, or any artistic form. Did the invention of the electric guitar set a wrong direction? Those who hate rock-n-roll might say so - unless they like what it did for some jazz players. Today, some feel that the relative ease of using digital audio workstations is making for some really crappy home-based music.
These are all just tools for expression; the artists can use them or reject them as they wish. No one was forced to use Gould's innovative studio techniques - some still don't. Considering how small a percentage of the record-buying public goes for classical music (2% and shrinking), the genre's musicians have been rethinking the dynamics of how to get their materials to market.
Philip Glass's Orange Mountain Music is an excellent example of a modern success story, embracing both physical discs and downloads, knowing that the audience for the material is small - yet the label's sales blossomed beyond their initial expectations.
A number of orchestras (London Symphony & Chicago Symphony prominent amongst them) are now offering live recordings (that's live in performance - NO editing or studio post trickery) on their own labels...and as downloads. Perhaps they are rebelling against the Gouldian studio-perfection model you described, Raymond. |
Edited by - Retro on 04/30/2008 07:51:37 AM |
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Darin
Lokahi
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 1:00:38 PM
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"These are all just tools for expression; the artists can use them or reject them as they wish. No one was forced to use Gould's innovative studio techniques - some still don't. Considering how small a percentage of the record-buying public goes for classical music (2% and shrinking), the genre's musicians have been rethinking the dynamics of how to get their materials to market."
Gregg, interesting thoughts, which I think dovetail into Peter's comments. The changes in technology are certainly reshaping the way music is consumed, and along with that, the way music is being created and sold. I'm actually surprised that there aren't more people on TP that are hooked on iTunes and other forms of digitally sold music, particularly since it takes a fair amount of tech savvy to post and contribute on this site. Seems like there are thousands of teenagers out there (who comprise the largest segment of music purchasers) who have never purchased a CD in their life. While many in this online community are still avid purchasers of the cd, that does not appear to be the case for the larger segment of music consumers.
What's fascinating, exciting, and scary to see, is how musicians who depend on music as a sole source of income, embrace or reject digital technologies. To me, the market appears to be diversifying, although each revenue stream seems to be shrinking. It seems (without relying on any actual data) that musicians are relying more and more on multiple revenue streams. Whereas an artist would rely on live shows and a record deal 15 years ago, that same artist is relying on live performances, merchandise, licensing, instructional videos, physical cd products, iTunes to comprise their income. That artist is also recording, manufacturing (and sometimes mastering) cds on their own.
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Darin
http://www.hawaiiguitar.com/ |
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 1:47:28 PM
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Darin, why should I buy substandard technical quality music that I don't like? (2nd paragraph).
I have the best quality HD TV and I will not watch the drek on Comcast Cable. Sarah and I like sports and will watch the local affiliate OTA HD broadcasts of them. Originators start out with ~100 mps and cut that down to ~45 mps. Comcast compresses it further to about 12 mps and crams 3 HD signals into 1 QAM. So there are block errors and frame dropouts. For some reason, the frame dropouts happen when the Celtics are shooting the ball (of course it never goes in). So, I discontinued the so-called HD Comcast service and my smart TV's QAM tuner gets the silly Comcast HD MPEGs for $12/mo., or I switch to OTA antenna to get the sweat drops and facial hair.
So why should I listen to the sonic equivalent of Comcast's transmission of Desperate Housewives?
I will buy CDs and DVDs of great art until I am dead. Next purchase is BluRay, about Christmas time, when they have 90% of the bugs ironed out.
Why are you so perplexed that guys like me don't do what unborn 17 year olds do?
...Reid
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 2:42:41 PM
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You don't need to and shouldn't buy electronics when they are new technology. I remember my brother-in-law bought stuff for quadrophonic music and I think he had to buy separate records for such. Well that fizzled out big time. Then he bought an atari computer 64k, and all kind of other stuff when it was new and innovative and the latest craze. Better to be like me and Paul -- wait until the technology is obsolete and you can get stuff for cheap. Besides we were getting too old to climb the pole to answer the telephone.
Actually what I need is my own personal music band to serenade me, live and in person. That is the ticket!
But wait a minute, ain't CDs digital also too? |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
Edited by - wcerto on 04/30/2008 2:43:18 PM |
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`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 3:55:09 PM
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Raymond and Reid. I know you guys and I love you both, but I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I don't know Gould from schmould or Solti from Poultry. All I know is when I'm editing or mastering a recording and I listen to it back at 24 bits, it sounds pretty damn good. I bounce it to a 16 bit CD and it still sounds good. I make an MP3 and it sounds like crap. MHO.
dog |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 7:53:13 PM
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| Leave it to Dave to sum it up perfectly. |
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