| Author |
 Topic  |
|
hapuna
Lokahi
USA
159 Posts |
 Posted - 05/09/2008 : 08:38:36 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Retro
Here at work, someone actually gave me a hard time for pronouncing "`ukulele" correctly - they felt it was "pretentious" to do so, like saying "Meh-hee-coh" for the nation to our south.
And this was coming from a radio announcer. A public radio announcer, no less. We know from pretentious, lemme tell ya.
Guess they would be okay with "nu-kyoo-lar." Or "carry-okie."
Hey speaking of ukulele, the announcer on that radio piece, though he sort of pronounced it correctly, it still sounded funny for some reason.
And Bush thinks nu-kyu-lar is OK!!!! |
hapuna
Seattle |
 |
|
|
hapuna
Lokahi
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 08:42:17 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Admin
Another challenge is that languages do evolSo are you new school, old school, or NO school?
I guess I'm new school. I don't punctuate unless it is very obviously needed to understand the sentence. However sometimes even punctuation doesn't help. |
hapuna
Seattle |
|
|
|
hapuna
Lokahi
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 08:47:23 AM
|
OK then there are the "point of view" issues.
Bring and Take come to mind. For some reason folks don't use take anymore.
Imply and Infer.
By the way all of this being said as long as I understand what you said its OK with me.
I don't think folks put a lot of effort/energy in quick communication of a web forum. |
hapuna
Seattle |
|
|
|
Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 11:55:12 AM
|
quote:
How do you determine that yoo-ke-lay-lee is "the English language pronunciation," as opposed to just an inaccurate pronunciation that became more common over time?
Umm, wouldn't that be the definition of the correct English pronunciation of a borrowed word? As in the business establishment where you go to eat an nicely prepared meal? Or any other French word? Or just about any Americanization of just about any English word?
Or, for a few random examples from the musical world "lute" (al `ud) "guitar" (how far back do you want to go? Sitar, gittern, chitarra, and zither are all versions of the same word); "violin," " fiddle," and, oh yes, "banjo."
What about Hawaiian mispronunciations of English? Are they wrong then? "Sorry, Keoki, errr, George, but it's es-pahn-yoh-lo." (Of course, Keola once chided me for saying "paniolo" with a California accent. "California" is only pronounced correctly by their Austrian governor and no one in Nevada has a clue how to say the name of their state. But I digress.)
Speaking of mispronunciations, I am particularly fond of "ook." I started hearing it about three years ago among Hawaiiphiles who were making the effort not to say "you-koo-lay-lie." "Ook" is cute. It ain't any known language, but cute.
Anybody remember the NPR reporter who'd prattle on in totally unaccented English until she signed off? "This is Seel-vee-ya Poh-JOH-lay..."
Sheesh.
|
|
|
|
Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 12:59:29 PM
|
It's an intriguing juxtaposition that here, we have one thread saying it's okay to accept changes of words from another language over time (which is how many, many words have entered into the sponge-like English language - such as the name of the city where I reside, a bastardization of a Duwamish Indian chief's name), while elsewhere on the board, we have another thread about being sure you are accurate in your pronunciation of Hawaiian words in the songs we sing.
In recent years, I've found myself automatically saying "ook," just as Mark mentioned - though it still feels awkward. But when people comment on my pronunciation of `ukulele, generally they are curious about it - and it gives me an opportunity for a tiny lesson (which is all I'm qualified to present) in `olelo Hawai`i.
Yet, if I don't use the common pronunciation when singing "Ukulele Lady," it just don't scan right: "... if ooo like / a ooo-koo-leh-leh leh-dee ..." Ai-ya! |
|
|
|
hapuna
Lokahi
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 07:59:11 AM
|
Language is a complex living thing and its difficult to tell when a change has been accepted. I used to tell folks that irregardless wasn't a word until one of them showed it to me in a dictionary. The definition was "regardless".. Auwe.
In intermediate school we took Hawaiian language. The teacher was hardest on the boy from Ni'ihau who only spoke Hawaiian at home all his life. There was a clash between the living language of Ni'ihau and the language she had learned and taught for years but was not growing in the same way. Not saying one is right or wrong just illustrating the complexity of the problem. |
hapuna
Seattle |
|
|
|
wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 08:06:31 AM
|
| I cherish the part in Uncle Raymond Kane's film, "Kiho`alu: That's Slack Key Guitar", where he said as school the teacher smacked him if he spoke Hawaiian, and his dad smacked him if he spoke English, so he tied up his clothes in a bundle and went to live on the beach! |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
|
|
|
guitarded
Ha`aha`a
USA
1799 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 09:29:29 AM
|
At braddah Duke's house: "Eh Braddah Duke, try lemme spock dat yuke brah. I jalike check um out, no worry I give you back." 
At Mr. Retro's house: "Hey Gregg, would you mind if I took a look at that awesome ookoolele of yours? Thanks, you're a gentleman and a scholar." 
Simply adapt to whatever context you're in at the time. No stress, just press.
The way I post in here -- proper or pidgin English -- usually depends on whose post I'm bouncing off of or replying to, and whoever might not care for the way I write can just mosey their snobby condescending noses on down to the next post, which I'm sure many here already do.  No biggie to me, because life is too shawt to sweat da small stuff. |
 |
|
|
|
Baritone
Lokahi
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 10:15:44 AM
|
Right on da kini popo, Bradduh Ed! When in Italy, use hand gestures; go learn em, first!
Herb |
|
|
|
braddah jay
Lokahi
235 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 2:08:18 PM
|
| Right on braddah ed,life is to short,get adda tings fo worry about.Like can I afford dat new guitar,or ookalele,yookalele.whatevas.Aloha braddah jay |
|
|
|
Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 3:12:21 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by guavasunrise
At Mr. Retro's house: "Hey Gregg, would you mind if I took a look at that awesome ookoolele of yours? Thanks, you're a gentleman and a scholar."
To which I would respond: "Most certainly, sir, but indulge me first...
who might you be, and what have you done with my good friend, Ed?" |
|
|
|
wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 3:29:43 PM
|
| He's in the witless protection program. Ooops. I mean witness. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
|
|
|
ypochris
Lokahi
USA
398 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 4:51:05 PM
|
"The teacher was hardest on the boy from Ni'ihau who only spoke Hawaiian at home all his life. There was a clash between the living language of Ni'ihau and the language she had learned and taught for years but was not growing in the same way."
When I took Hawaiian at UH I worked way harder at that class than any other class I have ever taken- and was pissed when I got a "C", messing up my four point average. I thought it was because I was the only haole in the class. A few months later, this older Hawaiian lady from the class came up to me and asked how I had done. She said she had been raised in a Hawaiian speaking family, and thought it would be easy for her, but she couldn't break the habits she had learned as a child and would have failed the class if the teacher hadn't fudged her a few points. I felt a lot better about it after that!
Since then I have often had native speakers tell me "University Hawaiian" makes them laugh. A set of rules was laid down that was based on a single dialect and didn't even accurately reflect that, as it was somewhat simplified to make learning easier. And suddenly the people who learned it from their ancestors are "wrong".
This is very applicable to this discussion, because once upon a time a man named Webster decided to standardize the English language. Up until that time people spelled words, punctuated, and arranged sentences however they pleased- try reading an old document some time. His spellings were often bizarre, and his pronounciations had little resemblence to "the Queen's good English". And yet, just as the boy from Ni'ihau was told he was not speaking correct Hawaiian, we are all told that the only "proper" way to speak English is Webster's way. When I was a boy in California, anyone who had an "accent" or spoke "improperly" was sent to speech therapy once a week until "cured". The only thing acceptable is what I call "Hollywood" English- the new world standard. It has deviated so far from "the Queen's good English", as "true" English is called, that I think it needs a new name- Hollywoodish is a bit awkward, as is Californish. Webstrish, perhaps?
Chris
|
|
|
|
`Ilio Nui
`Olu`olu
USA
826 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 6:28:26 PM
|
quote:
I cherish the part in Uncle Raymond Kane's film, "Kiho`alu: That's Slack Key Guitar", where he said as school the teacher smacked him if he spoke Hawaiian, and his dad smacked him if he spoke English, so he tied up his clothes in a bundle and went to live on the beach!
What about run-on sentences, punctuation, spelling and transcription?
I cherish the part in Uncle Raymond Kane's film,(italics) "kī (Space)hō`alu: That's Slack Key Guitar", where he said as at school the teacher smacked him if he spoke Hawaiian (no comma) and his dad smacked him if he spoke English. (period) So, (comma) he tied up his clothes in a bundle and went to live on the beach!
As (not Like) Bruddah Ed said, "No stress, just press."
dog
PS: My favorite is guage, as in strings.
|
|
|
|
guitarded
Ha`aha`a
USA
1799 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2008 : 7:23:05 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by `Ilio Nui
As (not Like) Bruddah Ed said, "No stress, just press."
dog
woof!!! |
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
