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RichM
Aloha
30 Posts |
 Posted - 11/17/2008 : 9:19:56 PM
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Any procedures that one uses?
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Music and Ridin' |
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Sarah
`Olu`olu
571 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2008 : 05:23:49 AM
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Two tricks I know of... for either music or lyrics. One I learned from my mother who was a pianist, the other I finally got thru knocking my head against a wall ;-)
1) work backwards: start with the last measure or line, and get a grip on that. Then, start with the second-to-last measure or line, and keep going to the end, till you have that pretty much down. Then start with the third-to-last measure or line, and follow to the end, through what you've "learned so far". Etc., till you reach the real beginning of the piece/lyrics. The repetition of the last parts reinforces them each time, and you don't get stuck with that problem of learning the beginning real good but "never making it to the end".
2) break it down: work with small sections/chunks, repeating them a lot by themselves, and take a real break before adding more material. Next step is to work on the junctures between the secitons to get the transitions smooth. This way, you can build up a piece and its proper flow bit by bit, avoiding mental overoad ;-)
After that, for me it is just repetition, repetition, repetition, to develop that flow so that hopefully I won't have a hitch due to forgetting what came next.
Hope this helps...... |
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Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2008 : 08:02:01 AM
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Hi Rich & Sarah,
Sarah's advice is excellent -- this is a very effective method of teaching. It is the same way that I learned Hawaiian music some fifty years ago. It is a method of learning that develops continuity between a measure, a phrase, a whole verse and a chorus.
Sometimes taking the front to back or beginning to end approach is not the most efficient way of learning how to do things, because you do not understand the inter-relationship between sections. However, when you do things back asswards, learning becomes more than mimicry or pointless repetition. This method forces you to think and connect all the dots so to speak. I also teach this way, the repetitions of the previously learned material are continually reinforced each time a measure or two are added. Then of course once the material is mastered, you start the music from the top -- the presentation is from the beginning to the end. |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2008 : 09:31:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Peter Medeiros
Hi Rich & Sarah,
Sarah's advice is excellent -- this is a very effective method of teaching. It is the same way that I learned Hawaiian music some fifty years ago. It is a method of learning that develops continuity between a measure, a phrase, a whole verse and a chorus.
Sometimes taking the front to back or beginning to end approach is not the most efficient way of learning how to do things, because you do not understand the inter-relationship between sections. However, when you do things back asswards, learning becomes more than mimicry or pointless repetition. This method forces you to think and connect all the dots so to speak. I also teach this way, the repetitions of the previously learned material are continually reinforced each time a measure or two are added. Then of course once the material is mastered, you start the music from the top -- the presentation is from the beginning to the end.
I start by figuring out the harmonic structure of the song. I listen for V chords (i.e., the G7 in the ket of C) and work backwards, which I learned from jazz classes at Dick Grove music back in the 70's. There's a lot of passing through the circle of 5ths in Hawaiin music ( III VI II V I), so I have my ears open for that, entering somewhere along the circle. After I have the structure, then I work on the melody. After that, if the band lets me, I learn the words pretty much as mentioned above. |
keaka |
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Podagee57
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2008 : 9:00:39 PM
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| Now where did I put the words to that dang song! I just had 'em a minute ago...right here in my hand....lesee, I went into the garage........then the kitchen.........hhhhmmmm........looked everywhere.....oh there they are...........on my music stand! |
What? You mean high "E" is the TOP string. No way dude! That changes everything! |
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hapakid
Luna Ho`omalu
USA
1533 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2008 : 9:33:16 PM
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I haven't memorized many Hawaiian songs, but generally I listen to my favorite recording over and over before I feel like I can sing it.
Jesse Tinsley |
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Trev
Lokahi
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2008 : 01:10:38 AM
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People have got different 'learning styles', and it all depends what you want to memorize, but there's various good things you can try. People can often remember verses, for instance, but often forget which one comes next. You need something to link one with the next- this can be almost anything. If the song tells a story, you have got the 'what happened next' thing to help, or you can take the first letter of each verse and make it into a word, which will help with the order of the verses.
I've always been really good at remembering certain things, but lousy with others. I can remember not only the script, but the precise intonation from a comedy sketch I saw 20 years ago. I can remember a poem we read in a single lesson in school line for line 25 years later, but can I remember when I'm supposed to show up somewhere, or where I've left my keys? It is with a heavy heart that I have to tell you, no I cannot.
My Alison I'm sure is constantly frustrated by my memory being so 'selective'.
Conversations will go like this
Alison - "Nigel told me about x, y, or z"
Me - "Nigel? I wasn't aware that I even knew anyone called Nigel."
Alison "He's been to the session about six times. He's about five foot seven, brown hair, glasses, beard, probably in his late forties and wearing a blue shirt."
Me - "Eeeerrr, nope, sorry, no idea who you're talking about."
My Smarter Friend - "He's the left handed guy who plays the Martin"
Me - "Oh, him! Yeah yeah, I know the feller!"
I think the key to learning anything is repetition. Practice and more practice. A friend who learned music in the classical tradition was taught: "Practise until you get it right, then keep practising until you can't get it wrong."
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2008 : 03:23:38 AM
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quote:
"...then keep practising until you can't get it wrong."
This is an excellent goal, but I have always suspected that the logic in this statement has a very serious flaw. :) |
Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 11/19/2008 03:27:00 AM |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2008 : 06:46:13 AM
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| Most of the Hawaiian songs I learned came from rehearsing with hula dancers - as they repeated the steps over and over, I repeated the lyrics from a songsheet over and over. I still keep song-sheets at hand, for mental triggering of verses, when I play. |
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javeiro
Lokahi
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2008 : 07:22:45 AM
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There are some great ideas here for both music and lyrics, and I must try learning a song backwards.
Kurt, that's a very familiar story but you were no help at all! LOL |
Aloha,
John A. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2008 : 07:31:03 AM
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Retro's method is what helps me as well. The lyrics and the hula together really help, you get the physical which helps remember the words. Also when the hula folks call out the beginning of each verse, well, that is way easy to remember. And the first time a verse is sung, then next timie you know what verse to use. Also for me, if I write something down or type it, I remember mo bettah. That's the way it was when I was in school or at work on big projects. If I would write stuff down, I could remember it. I would even take my handwritten notes and type them up and then for sure I would remember.
Harder for me is learning Hawaiian songs because it is not my native language. However, it sure does help playing the same song over and over on the CD player. Then what I do is sing along with the record. For songs I want to learn how to sing, I print out the lyrics, listen to the song over and over and over with the lyrics in front of me and singing along with the recording. Another thing I do is listen on Auntie Maria's web site to all the versions I can find of the same song. It helps imprint the song.
I think remembering intangibles is harder than muscle memory. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2008 : 09:39:51 AM
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| When learning a song, I like to listen to as many versions as possible. Then, I listen to it over and over -- especially while in the car. |
Andy |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2008 : 09:48:51 AM
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I haven't tried learning a song backwards but I'm going to...I think it will solve some of the problems I've been having. The other things that I find helpful are:
- Memorize the way a song is supposed to sound before you start learning it (especially the melody).
- Better to be slow with an even tempo than at speed with the tempo all over the place.
- Learn how to play through mistakes rather than always stopping and correcting as you make them.
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Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Podagee57
Lokahi
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2008 : 1:37:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by javeiro
Kurt, that's a very familiar story but you were no help at all! LOL
OK John, I'll try to suggest something helpful this time.
With songs in English, I listen to each verse and sing along. When I get the first verse memorized, I move on to the second verse, then the next verse. One verse at a time. And I mostly do this while driving in my car, using a CD that I have made of songs that I want to learn.
For Hawaiian lyrics, first I research the meaning of the words and make notes. For instance, in the He Mele Aloha book there are English translations for each verse. However there are no transliterations - that is, word for word translations. Line by line, I use a Hawaiian dictionary to learn what the individual words of the song mean and make notes of the translations under those words.
This helps me to understand what the song is about and how the English translation was derived. It also helps me expand my knowledge of the Hawaiian language. I find that knowing what the song is about, or the story it tells helps me memorize it. Thinking in my mind about what it is I am singing about as I sing along. Almost like telling a story...the order which things in the story occur.
Then I use the same process as when learning in English. Learning verse by verse. Initially I need the Hawaiian words in front of me when singing along. Then as I become more familiar with the lyrics I try to do it without reading the words as I sing - peeking at them only as needed. Eventually I no longer need to see the lyrics and can sing along from memory. Of course I don't try to read along as I sing while driving. haha |
What? You mean high "E" is the TOP string. No way dude! That changes everything! |
Edited by - Podagee57 on 11/19/2008 1:41:41 PM |
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alika207
Ha`aha`a
USA
1260 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2008 : 3:05:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
Retro's method is what helps me as well. The lyrics and the hula together really help, you get the physical which helps remember the words. Also when the hula folks call out the beginning of each verse, well, that is way easy to remember. And the first time a verse is sung, then next timie you know what verse to use. Also for me, if I write something down or type it, I remember mo bettah. That's the way it was when I was in school or at work on big projects. If I would write stuff down, I could remember it. I would even take my handwritten notes and type them up and then for sure I would remember.
Harder for me is learning Hawaiian songs because it is not my native language. However, it sure does help playing the same song over and over on the CD player. Then what I do is sing along with the record. For songs I want to learn how to sing, I print out the lyrics, listen to the song over and over and over with the lyrics in front of me and singing along with the recording. Another thing I do is listen on Auntie Maria's web site to all the versions I can find of the same song. It helps imprint the song.
I think remembering intangibles is harder than muscle memory.
Wanda, how's the 'ukulele going? Can you play and sing at the same time? |
He kehau ho'oma'ema'e ke aloha.
'Alika / Polinahe |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2008 : 3:23:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Podagee57
Of course I don't try to read along as I sing while driving. haha
Actually, I have tried that. At stop lights only, though. |
Andy |
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