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ongchua
Akahai
USA
92 Posts |
 Posted - 05/22/2003 : 02:14:13 AM
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Well, I tried searching through the topics and I couldn't find an equivalent, so I've decided to start this one.
Some of you seem to have started by learning the guitar and later learning slack-key; others seems to have started purely with slack-key. Some seem to have taken the path of self-instruction while others have sought out instructors.
I'm just beginning my journey with the guitar AND with slack-key. Having little time between work and family, I've decided to start with just self-instruction (working with the eMedia Method CD, a few videos on acoustic guitar and classical methods, and reading Ozzie's book on the side). I expect to progress slowly with daily practices of 30-60 minutes. Past experience in learning to play other instruments has taught me that there are no shortcuts.
What I'm looking for in this topic is advice from those of you that have already made the journey or have already embarked upon it. Although there are no shortcuts, there are methods for more effective learning and detours could might provide some improvement. Should I have even a few sessions with an instructor? Might it pay for me to learn some fingerpicking techniques of classical or blues guitar? Should I be reading (viewing, listening) other books (videos, CDs) that might be more helpful for self-instruction? What were your frustrations? Did you ever plateau? How did you find breakthroughs?
I imagine that everyone has their own unique story to tell. From these, I'm hoping to choose and adopt what might fit myself and my learning circumstances.
I'm looking forward to your replies (as might others out there who're in the same situation as I am)! 
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 02:54:09 AM
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Hans,
Welcome -- what a great time - starting out playing one of the most beautiful styles around and one which, with a reasonable amount of practice you can get to sound pretty good in, within a relatively short time.
I started to play the guitar and slack key at the same time, with Keola Beamer's tapes. Don't do that. Too advanced. For my money, nothing better than to work through Ozzie's book first. All the basics there. And some neat stuff to play. Led's tape is a good next step.
Playing the guitar is a very athletic activity with a lot of repetative movements. My advice is to either start with something like Frederick Hand's tape on beginning classical playing or, even better, take a consult/lesson with a respected teacher of classical guitar focused on basic mechanics. I would contact one of the players of either the San Francisco Guitar Quarter or the Los Angeles Guitar Quartet, depending where you live. They have superb technique and if they can't show you, they may refer you to someone who can. Otherwise ask around.
I would recommend as soon as possible getting at least one good lesson from someone who knows how to teach beginners. 1) It will probably save you lots of time and help prevent learning bad habits. 2) For me, I couldn't get the "feel" until I spent a day with a teacher. If you live in No CA, email my link and I could make a few suggestions. If you live in So CA- ask the slackers down there!
Resist the temptation to learn a lot of different tunings, especially at first. Taro Patch is relatively easy to learn, but there a lot I'm still learning after more than 3 years in it. And it is a beautiful tuning. (Not that other tunings aren't.)
Listen to as much slack key as you can. (My wife finally got used to me going to bed with the earphones - (after the other pleasantries))
Listen to different styles of slack key. Don't get locked into some dogmatic view of what slack key is or isn't at this point. Learn the old style. Learn Ray Kane's style, Keola, Ozzie, etc etc. After a while your own ssstyle will surface. Don't push it. It will happen.
Plateaux? No such thing. Dry spells. Self doubt. Wondering why I'm messing with the stuff. Being sure I played like a genius. Being sure I sounded like the worst clutz. Hateing it. Loving it. Getting stuck, maybe just about 10 or 20 times a year. All that, but plateaux? No.
Bottom line: Play what you love for the love of it. Never let yourself get so wound up that you loose your passion. And have some fun with it. After all, we are playing clumsey looking wooden boxes with nylon and steel strings strings stretched over them. And they make such beautiful sounds? .... Magic.
Enough already
Raymond
San Jose |
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indy
Aloha
16 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 03:22:59 AM
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| perfectly said... ditto. |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 1:06:46 PM
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| You're on a roll this week Raymond! |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Bruddah Chrispy
Lokahi
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 4:03:18 PM
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Aloha e Hans,
Congratulations on taking the first step on a never-ending path of joy and self-discovery! Sound a little hokey? Well, maybe. But congratulations! And welcome! E komo mai! Taropatch.net is a wonderful resource.
I'll throw out a couple of pointers that I've discovered along the way that I wish I'd learned earlier.
- Get a guitar stand. That helped my playing more than anything else. If the guitar is always sitting next to the couch (or wherever you hang out), you'll get into the habit of picking it up more often. If I'm watching a Mariner's game, the guitar is in my lap, and I'm noodling around without even realizing it. If the guitar is in its case, in the other room, it's gonna end up staying there. Make it as handy as you can to play!!
- It's probably more helpful in the beginning to get a few songs wired than to learn many songs poorly. The first couple of songs in Ozzie's book are wonderful confidence builders, and touch upon the open- and closed-positions that you'll use over and over again.
- I'm a firm believer in 'getting away' from the tabs as soon as possible. I.e., My understanding of a song, and my ability to play it, improve dramatically when I no longer have to look at the tabs. It enables me to actually hear the song I'm playing.
- In learning a new song, don't stop at the end. Loop it right back around to the beginning. Play it over and over and over and over until your dog is begging you to stop and your fingers are bleeding. So what if the tabs say to play it two times through. Geev em brah, no shame, we won't go tell.
- Tied to the previous idea, don't stop because you made a mistake. Keep playing. Correct it the next time it comes around on the guitar. If you're playing it over and over, you'll get plenty of chances. This allows you to recognize the areas that are giving you problems. Eventually you'll know that they're coming and be prepared for them.
- Play with other people. Even if you're not on their level. If they're better than you, you'll learn from the experience. If you're better than them, you'll learn by helping them.
- When you play with other people, you will make mistakes. Everybody does. So what? Don't stop playing. Don't roll your eyes. Don't make a face. Just keep pressin! We seem to think in the beginning that when we make a mistake that it's important to signal to everyone else that "Yes! I made a mistake! I am aware of it!" Don't bother. Just keep playing. Laugh about it when the song is over.
Hope this helps.
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Aloha a hui hou,
Chris P.
There's no regrets; only good times. |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 5:55:42 PM
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Great list Chris...the guitar stand tip is especially important. One thing I'd add is:
- Listen to a recording of the song you're learning over and over until you can play it in your head. It's much easier to learn a song when you know what it's supposed to sound like than when you don't. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Bruddah Chrispy
Lokahi
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 6:09:14 PM
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| Excellent point, Craig! If you 'hear' the song in your head, it's much easier to coax it out of your guitar. |
Aloha a hui hou,
Chris P.
There's no regrets; only good times. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 11:16:03 PM
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Yo Craig -- just finished a monster job that was weighing me down - lots of spare energy.
You guys are making great points. I especially like that one about being able to hum/sing/whatever first.
I guess because I'm used to playing with music - fake books, classical stuff on piano, -- for me using TABS/music or by memory doesn't make a difference. I don't think memorizing is essentially a musical skills -- but you have to know the song well enough to be able to let the emotions through - that's for sure.
Raymond |
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ongchua
Akahai
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2003 : 02:03:39 AM
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Mahalo nui loa Raymond, Chris and Craig!
Well, from all your advice, it looks like I'm on the right path.
I did get a copy of Frederic Hand's video from the library last week. It's interesting on how he teaches a philosophy as well as mechanics. It may be a week or two before I can sample his techniques since I still need to grow my right-hand fingernails. Until then, I'll continue experimenting with a pick or empty hands. I don't suppose that I could make-do with fingerpicks and a thumbpick, could I?
I actually live in Pleasanton (not far from the 580/680 interchange). I'd take any suggestions for a good beginners teacher who's in town or nearby. I'm open to classic guitar since I doubt that I'll find any slack-key instructors in the immediate vicinity. In fact, I enjoy listening to classical guitar so a classic-training segue would be fine until my skills develop. Some folks at the local music shop had suggested that I get a copy of the Christopher Parkening Method book.
For the time being, I'm acclimating myself with "Slack-Key Guitar Masters" (1 and 2) to get a broad sampling of styles. I don't know which CDs contain compositions primarily in Taro Patch tuning. Any recommendations? Maybe I should sample more of Ozzie's CDs (since I'll be working with his book).
Chris is spot-on about getting a guitar stand. I got one and it's made a difference by giving my old Applause a "coaxing presence"; I swivel my chair around and feel that I just have to pick it up and practice a few chords. $10 for the guitar stand and $20 for a good music stand were worth it.
Right now, my first challenge is smoothing my transitions from one chord to the next. I know that it will come with steady practice but it just looks so easy when "everyone else" does it. I know the positions but I haven't yet developed the muscle-memory into my left hand. I'm only into my second week so it'll be a while before I'll have enough confidence to play with others.
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2003 : 02:16:33 AM
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Hans, you might want to look into Alaska Piks...they are a pretty good substitute for long fingernails while you're growing them out or if you prefer not to grow them or can't grow them. The plastic ones are especially nice if you don't like the clacking sound of metail fingerpicks.
With respect to chord changes, if you're playing slack key you'll find that you don't have to worry about them as much. Since you're typically playing only one or two notes at a time those notes define the only fingers for the chord that need to be in place at the time you play them. The other fingers won't be needed until later and so you don't have to focus on shifting the whole chord at once. Others may frown on this technique but I find it really helps when I'm trying to get my left hand used to fingering a chord. I still try to get all the fingers in place as quickly as possible, but in the order that they're needed. Since different sections of the song may require the fingers in a different order, it eventually all comes together.
I hope this explanation makes sense. |
Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2003 : 1:23:56 PM
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Beg to differ on the chord bit, Craig -- I started that way and it took a lot of effort to get out of a bad habit. I think if a person has the patience to work at it, learning how to get to chords and play from the chord positions right off makes a huge difference. However, no need to start with big chords. A simple triad made from parallel sixths (open & closed positions) with the bass on open strings is a very beautiful "slack key sound" and learning how to move up and down on strings 1 & 3 together isn't that hard. With all the other open strings - you've got strumming or picking paradise. Of course, a big part of Ozzie's sound is his mouch more complex chords -- but even he did not start there.
Raymond
San Jose |
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Bruddah Chrispy
Lokahi
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2003 : 1:51:01 PM
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Aloha e Raymond,
I gotta side with Craig on the chord topic. I agree that it is a bad habit, and like you it took me a while to break it. But I believe the most important thing for a beginner is to start making music as soon as possible. That is the 'critical mass' that will keep them practicing. Maybe it's just my own history speaking here, I worked for so long with standard tuning, learning all the beginner chords - and gave up playing the guitar because it all seemed to be practice for it's own sake. When I started with ki ho`alu, I was making music. And really, that's all I ever wanted to do.
That being said. I think that it's imperative as you move from beginner to intermediate (yeah, like there's one graduation ceremony) that you understand the chords you are fingering. Otherwise you'll never really get into just jammin'. You'll always be playing the songs 'as written'.
Just my thoughts.
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Aloha a hui hou,
Chris P.
There's no regrets; only good times. |
Edited by - Bruddah Chrispy on 05/23/2003 1:53:39 PM |
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ongchua
Akahai
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2003 : 2:05:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RJS
A simple triad made from parallel sixths (open & closed positions) with the bass on open strings is a very beautiful "slack key sound" and learning how to move up and down on strings 1 & 3 together isn't that hard.
Raymond
San Jose
My head is spinning right now. I'm sure I'll understand that someday.  |
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Admin
Pupule
USA
4551 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2003 : 2:58:43 PM
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Hi Hans,
I recommend learning songs from Ozzie's book - one at a time. Keep working at them and you'll be on your way. The notes before each piece are helpful and then play along with the CD and keep trying to emulate Ozzie's playing.
Check out Ron Loo's books too. In my opinion, they're excellent for someone beginning guitar and slack key at the same time. Ron takes each song measure by measure so you won't feel like the instruction is flying past you. They're more expensive than some other books, but heck compared to a series of private lessons, it's well worth it.
Somewhere along the way, a private lesson with a slack key teacher would be huge. Instruction, one-on-one, is very valuable in my opinion. I also agree with others that if you can find other players to hang out with and play with you're bound to pick something up. Sometimes you learn something by watching. Sometimes you learn through osmosis, that is doing nothing.
Check out videos too. I think I probably learn better from watching a video but that's what happens when you watch too much TV. You can pick up on hand positions, fingerings and picking styles which you might not get from a book.
In my opinion plateaus happen. It's all part of any learning process. You go through cycles of picking things up really fast, then really slow and then kind of staying the same. The cool thing is that a lot of it is your own perception. For example, I often feel like I have not learned anything new in regard to playing guitar. I feel like I haven't really been learning any new songs or riffs. But to put it in perspective, I compare my playing to one year earlier and suddenly it is clear that there was no plateau at all.
So have fun with it. And good luck! |
Andy |
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konavet
Aloha
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2003 : 3:25:33 PM
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Aloha Hans!
I lived and practiced in the Pleasanton/Livermore area for 10years before I moved to the Big Island. If you're looking for a source of guitar info, I suggest you look up Michael Ferrucci of Fine Fretted Friends in Livermore. He's a great guy and a good source of info regarding resources in the area. He's not into slack key all that much, but could probably direct you to someone who is.
As to the practice advice, I respectfully beg to differ with some of the advice given. Practice is one thing and just playing for relaxation and enjoyment is another. After nearly 40 years of playing, I wish someone told me the difference early on. I wouldn't have developed so many bad habits. I find that practice and learning new material works best in small increments. Take it slow and make every effort to play it correctly. Don't ignore your mistakes and try to get it right next time. Stop, go back and get it right. What happens if you just struggle though a piece sloppily, is you start remembering your mistakes, whether you want to or not(muscle memory). Never end a practice session with a mistake, that's what you'll remember. The "play 'til you drop" is great for jams and parties, but not for practice and learning. I believe studies have shown that much more progress can be made with brief sessions,ending on a positive note (pun intended),take a short break and repeat. It's less likely that you'll be practicing and learning your mistakes, instead of learning the piece.
Sorry to run on, but I wish I knew this a long time ago. I tend to rush through learning a piece, then find I'm making the same mistakes over and over. Because I learned the errors not the correct notes. and it's so much harder to undo and relearn than it is to get it right the first time.
mahalo for your indulgence
"ua ola loko i ke aloha" |
Dr. Pat |
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Pauline Leland
`Olu`olu
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2003 : 4:16:12 PM
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I'd like to add a bit to what Konavet said about mistakes. I agree, don't practice your mistakes or you'll become expert at mistakes. You're trying to build up muscle memory, and those synapses will reflect whatever you are doing, so do it right. Slow down, concentrate on the tough parts, do them perfectly over and over, bring them up to speed. Link them together into a whole piece playing slowly and perfectly before you bring it up to speed.
Chris is right, don't practice stopping at every mistake either. When you have an audience, then rhythm flubs are more noticeable than wrong note flubs, so just keep going.
I have trouble following my own contradictory advice, of course. 
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Pauline |
Edited by - Pauline Leland on 05/23/2003 4:17:23 PM |
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