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cdyas
Akahai
67 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2003 : 5:53:47 PM
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Playing slack key has been my first serious attempt to play music and I feel my understanding of music theory is very little. It seems that understanding at least the basics of music theory would be helpful in becoming a slack key player. If so, how much, and how does one go about not only knowing, but understanding and applying this understaning so that it is constructive in the learning process.
Chris
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2003 : 9:58:25 PM
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I think some basic theory is important, but every slack key player doesn't need theory. In fact, if you are just playing other people's arrangements, or you just want to strum along, you probably won't need any theory beyond knowing a few chords and which order they come in songs. Theory comes in when you start to do your own arrangements. (Arrangement = version of a song worked out by you. This could be simple, could be complex.Up to you.) It also gets very helpful if you want to start to work out a version you hear on recordings, or if you want to do improvisations. I don't think you need a lot of theory to be an adequate slack key player.The reason I say that is that, for instance, in Taro Patch most songs are in G and rely on mostly 3 chords. In addition, because we only have 3 different strings, the structure of the Taro Patch fretboard sets some limits. (That also can make it more "fun" trying to figuree out how to push those limits. -- A Master like Ozzie gets some unbelievably rich and complex chordal structures out of Taro Patch. That's part of why he's a Master.) I love to spice things up by playing "more contemporary" versions of chords - dimininshed, 9ths, etc, as well as play "substitute chords" That takes either a lot of "hit/miss" playing or some basic theoretical knowledge. Generally we don't modulate to different key signatures a lot, again something in which theory helps. Slack key is not like jazz where you need to know a lot of different chords, their progressions, scales,modes etc.... where you typically play with a small ensemble and its important for all to follow the same "rules" In fact, if you are playing by yourself, you can violate any "rule" as long as the result sounds good. "Music theory" is just a shorthand summarizing a lot of experience, and there is a lot of value in that. That being said... how do you get enough knowledge?
I think it depends on how "mathematical" your mind is. Music theory is basically math, which is then applied to, in our instance, the guitar fretboard. If you're mathematically inclined, there are a lot of basic theory books at various levels of complexity - pick one that makes sense to you. Most of the ones for guitar are based on the "Standard/Spanish tuning." Any good guitar or music shop should have a few different books like this. There are a couple of cheap computer programs that help you find chords in alternate tunings. A program like that, with your basic newfound understanding, and a few hours work will give you probably more than you will need for a long time.
If you're mind isn't very mathematical, it's probably best to find a professional musician (or a solid playing amateur) who knows theory and can teach it, and take a few lessons. -- Or check your local JC or Community Ed. I do not think mathematically, and I just couldn't get it without someone there to tell me and guide me through it on the guitar. (Actually I learned it first on keyboard and transferred it to guitar.) I think about 4 lessons can provide real good basic understanding.
(To be shameless about it , I am trying to put together a workbook on arranging songs in Taro Patch. I hope to make it as a series of hands-on excercises going from very easy to more complex, and incorportaing the basics of theory in an applied approach. Unfortunately, life and the necessity to pay our mortgage keep progress on that project at a snail's pace.)
To summarize - "music theory" really isn't a big, scarry beast. It is based on a few clear mathematical prinicples. In addition, in regard to slack key, you don't need to go into theory as much as with jazz or classical, etc. etc.
Hope this is helpful to you.
Raymond Stovich
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konavet
Aloha
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2003 : 3:38:41 PM
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"...can I read notes? Hell, there are no notes to a banjo. You just play it."
Reply made by an old-time banjo picker, interviewed
around 1850, and asked if he could read music.(from
Pete Seeger's "How to play the 5-string banjo, 1962)
Food for thought
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Dr. Pat |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2003 : 4:50:52 PM
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Here's something I can't figure out...
(This is not meat personally towards Dr. Pat, 'cause I found 6 other examples of what I'm talking about on this site in less than 5 minutes. I'm sure there are more)
So, how come when someone expresses that they want to learn something, typically music theory, reading notes, tab, etc, we get follow up comments that basically disparage learninig. Is ignorance a desirable state? I understand that the Hawaiian culture is traditionally an oral/aural culture, and slack key was taught "by ear and eye." However, in the little study I've done of Hawaiian music, especially chant and hula, the "guidelines" and refinements are mind-blowing. In some ways they make the basic chordal patterns used in Western music look simple. OK, so those rules are in the minds of the kupuna. And how much of that has died out, irretrievable lost? And sure, slack key is less complex than chanting and hula kahiko can be. But, written forms are not the enemies of traditional wisdom, and intelligent understanding does not necessarily take away from a heartfelt performance.
Am I missing something?
Raymond
San Jose
PS I've seen Pet Seeger pick up a piece of music for a song he has never played and sight read. I don't know if he is writing that he doesn't know notes. I've heard him say that he doesnit read music well, but I have seen him do a credible job of sight reading notes. |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 03:01:14 AM
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Raymond,
Lighten up Francis. :) Slack Key is all about the heart.
The followup comments come from the heart. No one is going to figure out the exact right way to do something the first time they try, nor should they. It's all about the journey.
I was performing in classical guitar when I was 16. Made it my life for a number of years after that. I discovered slack key only a few years ago, and guitar has been worth playing again. In fact, if I had know about open tunings when I was 12, then my little world would have been a hell of a lot happier.
If someone has an interest in something as beautiful as a stringed instrument (Hey Craig, I spelled it right this time!) you go with it. In fact, music theory for a beginner on an open tuning would most likely be counterproductive. Again, this is my opinion, only.
My opinion cdyas: if you are a newer player, theory is going to get in the way at first. You need to learn to love the sound that you make with your guitar, in order to have the interest to carry it farther. Bang it beat it, make it make beautiful noise for you. It is YOUR noise, and is from YOU. \
Then, as your decide you like, want, love, or whatever.....pursue theory.
My point is, if you wanna be a doctor, dont go study medical manuals, go to a hospital and observe them for a while, you'll learn so much more.
With aloha,
The Commander |
my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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cdyas
Akahai
67 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 2:09:30 PM
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Thanks for your responses, they are all helpful. I realize that I do not need to know music theory as a whole to allow me to play slack key (I have already proved to myself that one) but it seems helpful to understand the basics and when I say basics I mean basics. I love playing slack key, and if I can apply basic musical theories to what I am learning from playing TP tuning, then I feel it might help me play other tunings and possibly other types of music as well.
All of the learning material that is out there seems to apply some form of western musical theory in order to facilitate learning from the actual written form to the basics of chord progression and timing. Ozzie goes over open and closed positions in his book which seems to be related to the major scale and the relationship of the notes on the fretboard? I guess I am not trying to learn slack key through music theory but rather to learn music theory from what I am leaning from slack key.
Hey Dr. Pat closer to home would be Led sying "Just press".
Commander, What of your classical training have you been able to apply and help you understand what is going on with slack key music? If anybody else has any tidbits I would like to hear them as well. What can be helpful and what is not?
As slack key players we are a minority in the musical world but the more we understand and can share with others in as many forms possible, we can help perpetuate the popularity and longevity of this music and musicians.
Thanks for your insight Raymond, I probably will go out to find a basic book and if you have any suggestiosn please let me know.
Chris
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marzullo
`Olu`olu
USA
923 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 3:28:31 PM
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chris,
john's comment about braddah mark nelson is right on. try sending him a message (he's a registered member of taropatch - userid mark). he has a nice note, about six pages long, that is a good summary. he may be updating it for aloha music camp.
knowing a bit of theory helps you understand what's going on, so your idea of learning music theory from what you know about slack key is a great idea.
aloha, |
Keith |
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RJS
Ha`aha`a
1635 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 7:58:27 PM
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Cmdr. Piffle,
Ray Kane said something to the effect that there are probably as many paths in slack key as there are players. I buy that. What I'm getting a bit tired of on this site is people denigrating an approach that embraces some theory. I don't tell people who do not want to incorporate theoretical understanding that they are somehow wrong and should learn music theory. However, I don't appreciate others putting down approaches which value theory. There's room for both approaches and many variations of them. Slack key is about music - which includes heart and body and mind -- no way to separate them and still function as a human being. The issue that I wanted to bring up is that I feel that at times postings here put down approaches which value learning in a different way, and that IS about "heart" and "aloha.
Raymond
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Kahalenahele
Lokahi
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 10:23:39 PM
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Although Martin Simpson is not a slack key player, he plays extensively in alternate tunings - DADGAD, CGCGCD, CGDGCD, open G, open D, drop D, etc. I've seen him play major scales effortlessly in all of these tunings - play a scale, change tuning, play a scale, etc. He can go between all of these different tunings (and standard) because he's spent a great deal of time studying the interrelationships between the tunings.
For example, if you're new to taropatch (open G) tuning, but have played in standard for a while, isn't it helpful to realize that strings 2,3, and 4 are the same as standard? All of the fingerings runs that you can play in standard on those three strings are going to be the same in taropatch. Likewise, all of those things you can play in taropatch on strings 2,3, and 4 can be transferred to standard tuning.
And isn't it nice to know that the relative intervals for CGDGBD are 4 1 5 1 3 5? If you want to go to the fourth in that tuning, you know you can hit the open C. If you want the fifth, you can hit the open D.
Theory is a good thing. |
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cmdrpiffle
`Olu`olu
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 10:51:00 PM
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aloha all, Cdyas, Keith is correct...got to the light!
Raymond, I like that quote from Raymond Kane, I had not heard it before, but like so many things...it is surely true. I understood your point, and I know you too have a classical background.
I think it a bit harsh to say people are denigrating certain learing techniques on this forum. I've read about everything on this site, and I don't feel people do that. A well known contributors moniker of 'jus press', is not far removed from a 19th century banjo players musings about knot knowing what a note is.
This is my opinion only. Beauty flows from both.
Slack Key is a bit unique in music styles. The people who sound the nicest, are the ones from whom it just flows. I am not disregarding the intense devotion and study towards this style..
BUT, this is one type of guitar that really does benefit from just pressing....and having the ability to feel that. More than any other I have heard.
Maybe it is because open tunings are so much simpler to master than standard concert. I really don't know. Tell that to someone who has made it their focus on a particular tuning...say open G. Nothing simple about it!
I like to think that open tunings were made to 'noodle' with your heart and fingers between notes. (those not guitar savy, noodle is a respective term for improvisation.)
I think, (its all about me:)) that the ability to let go and hear in your head what you want to play, is the most important of abilities musically. I sometimes feel driven to take slackkey down to the elemental parts, to dissect it if you will, and apply known theory, in order to understand.................
When suddenly, I am lifted back to the harmonic beauty that Kilo'ahu is...and I know that IT will reject any of the above. It simply must flow. You must, jus press.
Cdyas, that is my opinion. I know it will only confuse things, but hell, they are my thoughts.
Raymond, we WILL get together soon to work out some Polish guitar. Polkas are NOT to be dismissed! I want to hear your Chopin.
Craig, I don't have spel checzh on this komputur, so anything goes.
And to all you folks reading this in Maui....Julie, Bill, Sarah, Larry, Reid, etc...et all
Miss you, wish I was there
Mike
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my Poodle is smarter than your honor student |
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cpatch
Ahonui
USA
2187 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 01:04:19 AM
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cpatch's patented steps to learning: Love it. Learn it. Live it.
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Craig
My goal is to be able to play as well as people think I can. |
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Mainkaukau
Lokahi
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 12:56:57 PM
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Mainkaukau's ways of learning: manifest and latent. Hey, I read it on a wall next to a soda machine in the Psychology Department at the University of Hawaii.  Have a healthy and happy day ya'll. |
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David
Akahai
92 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 8:24:06 PM
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| Uh oh. Time for words of wisdom. Confucius say many men smoke but Fu Manchu. He who crosses the ocean twice without washing is a dirty double crosser. Man who runs behind car gets exhausted. Man who run in front of car get tired. War doesn't determine who's right, it determines who's left. Show-off always shown up in showdown. |
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konavet
Aloha
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2003 : 10:34:29 PM
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| I just got back to the forum and I see my comment was misunderstood, as I feared after I posted. It was meant in a lighthearted way to point out the other side of the coin. I am a firm believer in understanding the structure of music, since it makes playing easier in the long run. On the other hand, being a good technician does not make one a good musician. It is a marriage of both- the yin and yang, if you will. Sorry if I offended anyone. |
Dr. Pat |
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cdyas
Akahai
67 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2003 : 10:06:15 AM
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No worries Pat, I did find humor and insight in your post.
Do you happen to be friends with the Bergin family?
Chris |
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Mainkaukau
Lokahi
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2003 : 10:47:03 PM
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| Once upon a time on the Island of Oahu, there was a 16 year old high school drop out. He could'nt read or write to well but he could play the drums like ringing a bell. He did'nt know any formal music theory but he could amazingly mimic the drummers of rock bands like Grand Funk Railroad, Led Zepplin and the Rapid Transit Authority (Chicago). These were some of the albums he would play along with to entertain us. In my opinion, basic music theory is an intrinsic part of us all and to progress to a higher level of music theory you need to apply specialized "labels" (like arpeggios, syncopation, chromatic scales)to identify the parts. It's Like leaving a trail of "labels" to map out your progress as you journey through the world of music. Music theory is a necessity especially for historical purposes but not really necessary to play and enjoy music at a high level. As for my friend Kimo, (his name has been changed to protect the guilty) he became a multi-millionaire manufacturing porcelin-coated ceramic toilets. Is'nt life a bitch? Now if I can only convince him to play the drums on my future album ... Alooooohas! |
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