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TerryLiberty
Lokahi
USA
207 Posts |
 Posted - 01/05/2012 : 2:12:52 PM
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Folks:
I just purchased a Seagull SWS Maritime guitar which I really love, although the action feels a bit high to me. I measured it at the 12th fret and I get 3mm clearance between the bass string and the fret and 2mm between the treble string and the fret. What is a reasonable clearance for good playability without introducing string buzzing? I'm inclined to shave a milimeter off the bottom of the bass side of the saddle to make it 2mm on both sides.
I might add that the neck is dead straight so I don't think the truss rod needs any tweaking.
Thoughts?
Mahalo.
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Terry
Olympia, WA
Forever a haumana |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2012 : 3:40:47 PM
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You should check your guitar physics/mechanics theory and setup standards. A steel string acoustic guitar neck is not supposed to be dead-straight. There is supposed to be a small concave curvature (bigger on the low string side - sometimes called relief) up to the 12th fret and then a slight widening of distance again above the 12th fret up to the last available fret (14 or whatever) - this is called fall-off. This is because of the way the strings vibrate, the vibratory excursions (which can cause buzzing) are greater either side of the middle of the open part of the string (which changes with the fret pressing which means the settings are a compromise). For playability the action should be as low as possible up the point where the buzzing occurs.
You can check the Taylor guitar site for guidelines on this, they will also give you some pretty good numbers and ways of measuring. (I do not remember any of the numbers off the top of my head)
Be aware that guitar setup also depends on playing style, if you tend to really thwack the strings you will need a higher action.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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TerryLiberty
Lokahi
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2012 : 5:41:47 PM
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Lawrence:
Thanks for the thoughts. I looked on the Taylor website and couldn't find what you were referring to. Could you help me a bit in finding the specific article? Anybody else know what Lawrence is referring to?
Any other thoughts on the matter?
Mahalo. |
Terry
Olympia, WA
Forever a haumana |
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Trev
Lokahi
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2012 : 11:39:39 PM
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I’d advise against making both sides 2mm. The bass strings vibrate over a wider distance, so need more ‘clearance’ otherwise they’ll start buzzing and rattling on the frets.
If you’re going to take it down at all I’d suggest taking it down evenly, the same amount off both sides.
But I’d also recommend you leave it for a month or two – you might get used to it as it is, and a higher action will be good for building up finger strength.
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Reid
Ha`aha`a
Andorra
1526 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2012 : 08:43:07 AM
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Trev, beg to differ about higher action than necessary "making you a better person". It just makes you have worse technique. Moreover, pressing down really high strings is equivalent to a "bend". The note changes.
As far as bass vibration vs. treble vibration goes, if any of the strings are whacking the fretboard by going up and down rather than side to side, one is doing something wrong. Having said that, a bit of vertical motion is inevitable, but good technique should eliminate most of it.
Lastly, the difference in clearance between treble and bass strings (all strings actually) is, (or should be) determined by the depth of each nut slot and the curved profile and height of the saddle, given appropriate neck relief as Lawrence described. Having 13 guitars set up both initially, and as maintenance as new guitars wiggle around or because of temperature and humidity changes, I can do a lot of that myself, and I have hung around a lot of luthiers who have demonstrated their work for me.
...Reid |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2012 : 09:05:58 AM
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| Terry - did you get it mail order? It sounds like the guitar was not set up, especially with the differnt heights of strings. In my experience at McCabe's in Santa Monica, a good luthier will leave the action high, and the folks at the store will set it up for you (if they are reputable). When you buy instruments on line or by mail order, it's hard to get them set up per your desires. I do not intend to be negative - it's just how it is. |
keaka |
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TerryLiberty
Lokahi
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2012 : 10:09:36 AM
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Jack (slipry1):
I bought it from Music 6000 here in Olympia. They're a bit like a used car lot - What you see is what you get. The guitar is a factory made Seagull and I doubt anyone has done any setup work on it. Music 6000 doesn't do any setup work and there's only one (very busy) independent guy here in Oly that does custom work like that. Consequently, I either go to Seattle for that "good luthier" or I'm left to my own devices. Since I'm a pretty good craftsman and woodworker, I'm not shy about doing some setup on a guitar so my initial question was to determine if the 3mm and 2mm numbers were out of line and what people usually shoot for.
Trev:
Thanks much for your comments. I understand the thoughts about finger strength but that's not an issue. I have no problem fretting individual strings and barre chords are not difficult either. The problem with the seemingly high action is that on the higher frets, when I attempt to fret one string, it's difficult not to touch adjacent strings making legato playing much harder. In addition, the guitar has a bit of a sharp intonation at the 12th fret, suggesting a bit too much stretch in fretting the strings.
Reid:
quote:
Lastly, the difference in clearance between treble and bass strings (all strings actually) is, (or should be) determined by the depth of each nut slot and the curved profile and height of the saddle, given appropriate neck relief as Lawrence described. Having 13 guitars set up both initially, and as maintenance as new guitars wiggle around or because of temperature and humidity changes, I can do a lot of that myself, and I have hung around a lot of luthiers who have demonstrated their work for me.
I'm not sure how to translate this into specific actions (numbers). Aside from asking practicing luthiers, is there some good reference for this kind of technique and possibly some "rule of thumb" measurements to start with?
All comments are much appreciated, folks. Thanks for attending to my question.
Any others?
Mahalo! |
Terry
Olympia, WA
Forever a haumana |
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2012 : 11:13:21 AM
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Here is a link to Taylor's "Truss Rod Adjustment" guide which also shows the amount of relief Taylor expects for their normal setup:
http://www.taylorguitars.com/global/pdfs/truss_rod_adjustment.pdf
Also one comment on Reid's comments. The string when first struck may vibrate primarily horizontally (parallel with the face), but this vibration precesses (and the precession cannot be prevented), so as the string rings-out the vibrations will become more perpendicular then more parallel, etc. Technique can help with making the amplitude mostly parallel at first, but due to small inbalances and the fact that the strings are stretched around a corner from only one side, the precession will still happen.
Here is where Taylor stores some of their Tech Info:
http://www.taylorguitars.com/contact/customerservice/
(Click on the "Tech Sheets" tab near the top of the page.)
Have fun!
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 01/06/2012 11:28:31 AM |
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TerryLiberty
Lokahi
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2012 : 11:40:50 AM
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Lawrence:
Super! I missed that one. It turns out that the Seagull neck is not "dead straight" but actually has the relief that Taylor suggests. I learn something every day. Something else I learned was that the Fender flattop that I've been playing has 12th fret clearances of 2.5mm bass and 1.5mm treble or 1/2mm lower that the Seagull. Makes me wonder what other folks measure on their favorite finger picking guitar. Hmmmm. Rulers, anyone?
Mahalo. |
Terry
Olympia, WA
Forever a haumana |
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Earl
`Olu`olu
USA
523 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2012 : 2:12:16 PM
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According to the Taylor tech sheets their standard factory set up is 4/64" (1.59 mm) on the 1st or high E string, and 6/64" (2.38 mm) on the 6th or low E string. Sounds like your Seagull is a bit higher than that, very typcial for a factory setup.
www.taylorguitars.com/global/pdfs/action.pdf
They also have good tech sheets on intonation and truss rod adjustments. Look under "Service and Support" then "Tech Sheets".
If you are going to lower the action, don't change the relative height of the treble and bass sides. Put a piece of 180 grit sandpaper on a really flat surface like an old mirror, and give the sadlle no more than 8-10 light passes, keeping it perfectly flat - no tilt or rounding off.
Try playing that for a while. Then only if it needs more lowering do you do it again. It is very easy to remove too much material, which means starting over with a new saddle.
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TerryLiberty
Lokahi
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2012 : 3:10:42 PM
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Earl:
Mahalo! I need to read all those Taylor articles. Seems like som very good info in there.
I like your gradual approach. I remember the old woodworker's lament: "I cut it and cut it and it's still too short!". Good advice to go slowly. I have a jig to assure that it's sanded flat.
Regards, all. |
Terry
Olympia, WA
Forever a haumana |
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Trev
Lokahi
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2012 : 01:09:28 AM
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Reid, I didn’t say playing with a higher action would make you a better person, I said it would make your fingers stronger, which it will. As for it making me have worse technique, well I’ll freely admit to not having the best technique in the world, but I can play a few different things with a bit of luck and a following wind!
It’s subjective. I happen to prefer the tone and projection you get with a bit of a higher action, and also to be able to play a bit of steel or slide without rattling the frets. I realise that I’m in the minority - not for the first time on here – but I’m certainly not the only one in the world.
Albert Lee practices in the house on an acoustic with a fairly high action to maintain finger strength. If this makes Albert Lee have worse technique, well I can’t say I’d noticed.
Terry, If the strings were supposed to be totally parallel, the manufacturers would make them that way, and they don’t. Don’t all guitars have a higher action on the bass strings? I think filing it to a flat 2mm wouldn’t be a good move. I’d say it’s better to take half a mil of both sides. But it’s your guitar, so it’s up to you. You can always fit a replacement bridge for not much money if you find you don’t like it.
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TerryLiberty
Lokahi
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2012 : 05:40:22 AM
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Trev:
Much appreciated. From what I'm hearing here and other places, I think I'll try dropping 1/2 mm on each side. I'm planning on purchasing a replacement bridge saddle before I try anything, just in case. I'll let you know what happens.
Mahalo, everyone. |
Terry
Olympia, WA
Forever a haumana |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2012 : 09:48:33 AM
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| Terry - I had my 0028 Martin ste up at Dusty Strings. They do fabulous work. If you come up next Saturday, the montly spam n' jam is happening 9-12 at the Kona Kitchen. corner of 5th Ave NE and NE 85th Street. Ono grinz and kanekapila! |
keaka |
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TerryLiberty
Lokahi
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2012 : 1:17:04 PM
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Jack:
Thanks for the thoughts. I had forgotten about Dusty Strings. I called them and they said that unless there was anything else our of whack that a truss rod adjustment and reducing saddle height would probably do it. I'm pretty crafty at that level of work so I think I'll tackle it myself. As for Saturday, I'm committed big time but thanks for the invite. I'll keep future dates in mind.
Regards. |
Terry
Olympia, WA
Forever a haumana |
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Baritone
Lokahi
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2012 : 5:28:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by TerryLiberty
Trev:
I'm planning on purchasing a replacement bridge saddle before I try anything, just in case.
Before modifying your "watevahs" on the Seagull, play the inistrument at its 'sweet spot'. If the "sweet spot" happens to be were you like to play, e.g. I prefer to play guitar, ukulele, etc. at the 3rd to 5th frets which ain't quite at the "sweet spot", all well and good. Otherwise, decide which is more important and manicure your instrument according to where on the fretboard you wanna work. For example, I've a 4 string tenor guitar that I play in the 1st to 3rd frets so I hacked away the saddle to give me those 'twangy' sounds when I whack da strings. My Po Mahina slack key koa guitar is set high because I like a little room for pullofs, etc., etc.
Herb |
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Topic |
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Reasonable Action On An Acoustic Guitar
