| Author |
 Topic  |
|
mpi_50
Lokahi
USA
133 Posts |
 Posted - 10/29/2009 : 1:16:18 PM
|
|
Time for me to eat some humble pie. I thought that I could just learn some chords in open G and play some songs. It works; but it lacks that unique Ki Ho'Alu ring. Bradda Fran (Guidry) said that I should learn these first; but Potagee Pride kicked in that "no need" attitude kicked in. Well guess what? Dis lolo bugga need big time kokua. I went back to my Ozzie Kotani book and played the two songs that I've learned and repeated Kani Ki Ho'Alu and Molehu and realized that I was missing the point. If someone would be so kind as to explain the nuances of inversions to me in an understandable manner I'd be forever grateful. As a reminder my work schedule delays my response time. MAHALO NUI!
|
|
|
Trev
Lokahi
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 03:06:50 AM
|
Not sure if I know exactly what you mean about the ‘nuance’ of inversions, but here’s a reply based on what I THINK you mean.
Inversions are a different ‘voicing’ of the chord. It has the same notes, but in a different order, so it sounds different. Consonant, or ‘harmonious’ but different.
With a G chord for instance, you’ll have a G, a B and a D. If you play the ‘first inversion, you get a B on the bottom, then a D then a G on the top. The second inversion would have a D, then a G and a B on the top. This makes a very significant difference to how you hear the music.
When I was a pesky teenager teaching myself, someone lent me their ‘Beatles’ book. Despite thinking ‘Aw no not this old folks music’ I didn’t really have access to much else, so I had a go.
‘Here Comes the Sun’ was in the book, in the key of A. This is the key of the recording. There was a piano part (which I couldn’t read) but they’d put guitar chord boxes in as well, helpfully showing you where to put your fingers.
They’d put the first position chords in. The A, D and E that everyone learns when they learn standard tuning. This was clearly the right key – but it sounded absolutely lousy to me – it wasn’t anything like the record. I later discovered that on the record, George Harrison plays with the capo on the 7th fret. He plays D ‘shapes’ which are an inversion of A up there.
I got a capo, put it on the 7th fret, and played the chord. Instantly it felt right – that’s how the song is supposed to sound. The correct inversion, that’s all it was.
In any type of music, anyone is perfectly free to play it how they like, or how they can. But if you want to play in a particular style, there are always particular techniques and conventions to style. If you don’t pay attention to these, then it won’t sound right.
Ever heard an opera singer try and do a rock song? It always sounds terrible, or even comical. They are certainly in tune, their technique is undoubtedly flawless, but it doesn’t sound right. Their classical technique is not appropriate for the conventions of rock music.
Which is a bit of a digression, (sorry), but my point is this – if the original version of the song you like contains inversions, then it won’t sound quite ‘right’ if you don’t use the inversions as well.
|
 |
|
|
Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 07:49:48 AM
|
Hey there -
If I might expand on what Professor Trev said:
Like him, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the "nuances" of inversions; but I'm going to hazard a guess. Trev's exactly right when he says that an inversion is simply a different way to stack up the notes in a chord.
So, in Taro Patch, strings 3-2 & 1 make a G major chord (G-B-D). This is the garden variety, basic root (G), third (B) and fifth (D) way to "spell" the chord you'll find in Music 101.
Following the textbook, the 1st inversion would spell the chord like this: Third (B), Fifth (D) and Root (G). You can find that one by fingering frets 4-3-5 on strings 3-2-1.
The second inversion would be the fifth-root-third, or notes D-G-B. Which is at frets 7-8-9 on those three strings.
OK, that's the book definition. In practical terms, musicians speak of "inversions" to mean something slightly different. We might be talking about a way to play chords moving up the neck, regardless of exactly how the chord is spelled. Or even if it's a real chord. So moving on same three strings from 0-0-0 to 4-0-5 to 7-0-9 to 12-0-12 could get you the "feeling' of moving through inversions, even though only the first and last are real chords. I'll leave it to you to figure out the notes.
Also, on guitar it is normal to double up one or more notes in a chord. So (again, in Taro) yer basic G chord with all open strings has three fifths (D), two roots (G) and only one third (the lonely B string). Ditto, Ozzie's great ending G chord: 5-4-0-0-0-5 has these notes (low to high): G-B-D-G-B-G; or Root-third-fifth-root-third-root. If you leave off the note at fret 5 on the high string, you get G-B-D-G-B-D; two properly stacked G major chords.
Are those three chords considered inversions of each other? Well, yes...and no. Sometimes the textbooks do not reflect the real world ... or at least the ways guitars work. On a piano, there's only one way to play each note; on the guitar there are 6 ways to play many of 'em.
(I'll leave it to the boys in the locker room to snigger over the term "properly stacked.")
So, to wrap it up: I'd suggest taking a few minutes with the chord charts for taropatch I posted here: http://www.taropatch.net/tunings.htm. Slack key players tend to use different shapes then blues, celtic or new acoustic players do.
And, really, don't worry about it. Work through Ozzie's books and you'll see that the sound comes from playing a lot of stuff that aren't properly chords at all. But that's another topic.
Have fun & don't sweat the small stuff. The good news is that it is all small stuff.
|
|
|
|
mpi_50
Lokahi
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 11:23:53 AM
|
| First of all Bradda Fran stressed learning inversions not chords first(that's me, and my 70's classic rock stuff). I am basicly self-taught (bought song books and was taught power chords). I thought that since it worked for me with standard tuning, I would be able to repeat my success with slack key tuning. I started with Daniel Ho's book and CD which was way too advanced for me. I tried Keola's book and CD and fared much better. however, I wanted to start with Taro Patch G, since my mom sings in that key (Keola had a couple song in G). I found Ozzie's book and rushed to learn songs using the previously stated methodology. Now that I can play some songs (very crude 2 finger picking) I want to add some color (nuances) to my version of some classics, like Sanoe for instance. Keola's version in F wahine is excellent, I'm trying to replicate that sound in Taro Patch G. I can pick out the melody acceptably, but when I try to go an octave higher (color) it sounds like I'm back to square 1. Maybe I should go back to Ozzie's book and try harder (Bradda Fran's suggestion). I hope that I've explained my situation in amore understandable manner, again MAHALO NUI! |
|
|
|
rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 11:46:39 AM
|
I think the idea of inversions has been covered as well as needed. Bear in mind, though, that a lot of the chords in slack key are implied by the use of bass notes, and not necessarily held as whole chords. Since you're using Ozzie's book,listen repeatedly to his playing-MANY MANY repeats. After really getting Ozzie's versions in your head,record yourself, and listen to it,and try to analyze what makes the two sound different. There are a lot of subtle things going on in slack key that don't readily pop out of tab. Your best ally in learning music is your ears. Train them by listening to as much slack key as you can. Internet Radio is good for that, as you may not find it in your area on regular channels. Slack Key Paradise is a good one, Hawaiian Rainbow , and a lot of players have songs on their web sites as well.
Some of this is mechanical stuff, such as sliding from one note to another instead of playing them as 2 distinct notes, but some of the things we hear on recordings are more matters for the poet than the scientist to explain. The people we listen to, and regard as legends, play songs they reacted to in their own learning stages. When Gabby, Ozzie, etc recorded songs, these were songs they had an emotional attatchment to. They learned these songs from family members, and friends. No tab can convey the memories of the ohana playing guitars & uke's in the back yard, as the keiki's played and other friends and relatives sang or danced. When you get the mechanical stuff down,you work on the heart stuff. Play the songs that YOUR heart connects with. That's what makes an artist differ from a technician. Someday, I hope to get there myself. I'm working with Ozzie's book, too.
Unko Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
Edited by - rendesvous1840 on 10/31/2009 3:40:43 PM |
|
|
|
Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 1:52:43 PM
|
quote:
First of all Bradda Fran stressed learning inversions not chords first(that's me, and my 70's classic rock stuff).
umm.. I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.  (No points for the reference, unless you are under 30.)
I'd suggest you go back to Fran and ask him what he meant--cuz the word "inversions" means exactly what Trev & I said it does: namely, chords built by starting on different scale degrees. Or different chord "shapes," if you prefer. Sorry, but that's what I thought you were talking about.
Knowing where they are and how to generate them is the single most valuable skill a guitarist can have... in any tuning, and style. (OK, knowing how to dazzle the folks in the cheap seats is pretty important, too.)
But again, you say you aren't talking about chords...
Are you thinking about double stops (two notes played at the same time)? They are one of the things that give slack key its flavor. Learning those up and down the neck in different tunings is real useful.
At any rate, Paul is right... if you want to learn a style, listen, listen, and listen some more. Don't worry about the theory stuff. You'll get it with time.
|
|
|
|
Fran Guidry
Ha`aha`a
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 06:10:47 AM
|
I've been digging through emails and found a series between Gary and I titled "inversions" but I didn't find any that actually talked about what they are. Perhaps I was saying that the open and closed positions represent different inversions of various chords. But no matter. I'm glad I suggested staying on Ozzie's book until it sinks in deep.
Fran |
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key Guitar in California - www.kaleponi.com
Slack Key on YouTube
Homebrewed Music Blog |
|
|
|
Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 12:20:01 PM
|
Chordal inversions have been adequately discussed above, but there is another related kind of inversion, a Melodic Inversion. I.E.: A sequence of notes built on the same (or very similar) chordal progression but using different notes. This is related to the concept of counterpoint, which is often built upon chordal inversions to obtain the "Similar but different" melody (if I remember my Music 101 correctly someone mis-placed my old textbook).
It this what the original post question was about?
|
Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 10/31/2009 12:23:20 PM |
|
|
|
Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 1:25:45 PM
|
Bravo Lawrence,
You hit the nail right on the head, I'd like to add more to this but I have to go into town right now so I won't be able to address this until later. This is more important than you may realize.
|
|
|
|
Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 2:55:25 PM
|
| Music theory threads on TP are among my favorites to read - because I understand them more viscerally than logically - and I am grateful to those of you who can do the reverse (or both). Brain/gut inversion? |
|
|
|
rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 3:43:13 PM
|
Gut inversion sounds like an unpleasant medical condition. Maybe caused by too many beers?
Unko Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
|
|
|
Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 7:11:39 PM
|
| I always return to the "root" beer, after an inversion. |
|
|
|
rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2009 : 09:16:19 AM
|
Not me. Tea is the first step for settling my inversions.
Unko Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
|
|
|
Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2009 : 1:45:32 PM
|
| Hate to say this -- BUT. Buy Peter Medeiros's Book. It will all become very clear. |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
|
|
|
Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2009 : 6:13:48 PM
|
quote:
This is more important than you may realize.
Having worked in the Music Schools of two different Universities (as a studio engineer and teaching assistant) I do appreciate the importance of Melodic Inversions and/or Counterpoint. (Without it Bach would be just another lost soul!  ) I wrote a computer program sometime in the 1974-76 period that composed counterpoint music using Markovian Stocastic Processes. It was all great fun, but the salary was very small, so I left for greener (as in greenbacks) pastures.
However, the connection(s) to Hawaiian Music would be most interesting, and I do indeed plan to buy Peter's book(s) very soon.
|
Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
Edited by - Lawrence on 11/02/2009 6:17:54 PM |
|
|
|
mpi_50
Lokahi
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 07:23:32 AM
|
| Bradda Fran hit it, I was thinking Open and closed positions. The feed back is great! I don't know music theory at all (Strike 1), I am self taught (strike 2) and I can't remember anything (strike 3). So what's an old fut supposed to do? |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Inversions
