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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 01/04/2010 : 10:04:01 AM
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I submit for your approval,...
to those who fear, or at least struggle with music theory...and it puts you into a Twi-light zone trance...
Go find a keyboard/piano you can get to now and then...
it can be a small Casio, or a Concert Bosendorfer Grand...your choice!
(it will be impossible to get your Bosendorfer on as a carry-on.
So, IF you think you could benefit from SEEING notes in your theory, as well as hearing what your patterns are doing...
try a LITTLE of this...a couple of scales to start to see some patterns.
Eventually, you could learn the major scale in ALL keys, --but to start, just do C, G, and maybe D and A.
YOU MAY"cheat"...use both hands, and 4-fingers from each hand to play (eventually) any scale....
It will require a basic understanding of how to build a major scale from a "home:"
where to step up...in the usual whole steps and half-steps in the right places.
Noticed the "black and white" pattern on the piano...NO black key between B and C, or between E and F....but it repeats the pattern over and over.
For an 8 note scale, start with C
...climb/play 8 white keys...start with middle C, (it's in the middle), or any C....climb to the next C.
NO Sharps or Flats.
Next find G, --you will need ONE black key...and do another 8 finger Do-Re-Me...climb to G, but play an F# on next to last note instead of F natural.
That's 2 scales
Now, if you're still haven't switched to Pre-Med, go up to D and build your scale--GUESS WHAT, 2 sharps
good old F# and plus a C#.
Notice, as you add, the sharps will NEVER change order FROM LEFT TO RIGHT you'll just keep adding. (THIS WILL ALSO BE TRUE FOR FLATS, once you go to that side of the "wheel" and their never changing patterns of adding as you go around the circle.
When you go up to 5 or 6 sharps, at some point it is best to start calling them flats...
But don't go all the way yet...Before you go past E major, 4 sharps, or B major (5 sharps) or for sure I'd stay away from F# adn C#...
Instead
build your scales from the other side of the "circle of 5ths"
F one flat...first flat is (always) Bb
then the next scale in flats is Bb, which uses the Bb and adds an Eb.
but don't talk it intellectually, Play the scales on these pitches.
it goes on around the circle till you meet up with sharps and deciding at what point one has more than the other, and all get a little obnoxious on the far side of the circle.
but it can be done. and once you transmute back to sharps or flats they will keep dropping one on each "slice" back towards C.
But take short journeys, learn a couple and see if the patterns start to gel.
This is literally in black and white.
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Mika ele
Ha`aha`a
USA
1493 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2010 : 1:52:44 PM
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It doesn't work if you start at the "C" note (to the left of the 2-black keys), rename the note D and walk up the scale on the white keys. 
I always get the dreaded question that nobody really wants the answer for -- "WHY???" Why can't I just go GABCDEFG, or FGABCDEF -- I don't get why there has to be an F# or a Bb, Why, why why? 
Ya have to know that the white keys are the "natural" notes and the black keys are the sharps (or flats, depending on your point of view).
OK smart-alek, why do I have to add one black key note in the Key of G or the Key of F -- but in the Key of F the black note is called a "flat" and in the Key of G, it is called a sharp -- huh- why- why- why? |
E nana, e ho'olohe. E pa'a ka waha, e hana ka lima. |
Edited by - Mika ele on 01/04/2010 1:52:57 PM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2010 : 3:02:24 PM
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[quoteI always get the dreaded question that nobody really wants the answer for -- "WHY???" Why can't I just go GABCDEFG, or FGABCDEF -- I don't get why there has to be an F# or a Bb, Why, why why? ][/quote]
Because the piano actually is not the easiest way to learn the relationships beteen intervals and scales, that's why. 
That instrument is the ... TA DA, Appalachian Dulcimer, which has a diatonic fret board. It is related to something called the monochord, that was invented to teach scales & modes.
So what's a diatonic fret board? It's a collection of whole steps & half steps that correspond to the notes of the common modes... ionian (major scale), dorian, aeolian (natural minor) and all the rest.
Here's the major scale. (W= whole step = two frets on the guitar, H = half step = one fret on the guitar.)
Start somewhere, then add notes as follows:
W-W-H-W-W-W-H
It doesn't matter what the first note is, it is the intervals that make it a major scale. It doesn't even matter if the first note is B 50 cents flat. It's the intervals.
So, everyone should go out and buy a dulcimer. 
I thank you.
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Lawrence
Ha`aha`a
USA
1597 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2010 : 3:07:04 PM
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Plus you have an added problem if you are playing a Bosendorfer Imperial Grand on the lower octave where all the white keys are black and all the black keys are white.
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Mahope Kākou...
...El Lorenzo de Ondas Sonoras |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2010 : 6:30:24 PM
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| And to think that I wasted my time with a diatonic accordion! |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2010 : 08:48:07 AM
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quote:
"Because the piano actually is not the easiest way to learn the relationships beteen intervals and scales, that's why."
---------------------------------------------------
I respectfully disagree...
It is if you learn a couple basics with a good, patient friend or teacher...
I was gonna pull this, but you guys like a good intellectual discussion! And there were your 100 cents.
I STILL think the piano is the route to WHY you need sharps and flats on a page-- and under your fingers.
Not sure why Mika's piano can't play a Major scale on the white keys starting on C.
Maybe it's time to tune it eh?!
Or I didn't read the reasoning correctly...
and Mika's usual very meticulous.
anyway, if out of tune,
We really won't die, but I know from my 5th grade beginners that the listeners will cringe, and our faces may not return to their normal, pleasant position.
Also, I used my hammer dulcimer and accordian for fire wood.
--probably some Dissonance issues there. So I have a good new year's project, but will have to check my coverages for tuning induced illnesses.
Violinists motto:
It's better to play sharp, than to play out of tune. |
Edited by - Kapila Kane on 01/05/2010 08:54:34 AM |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2010 : 10:25:05 AM
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quote:
Also, I used my hammer dulcimer and accordian for fire wood.
Throw in a banjo and you have have the triple crown!
However, please note that the Appalachian dulcimer & the hammered dulcimer are not even distantly related. (The piano is simply a mechanical hammered dulcimer, BTW.)
I actually agree with you that the piano is a terrific tool for learning theory...
however...
(you knew there would be a "however" didn't you?)
The dulcimer will teach you more about modes and scales.
How many theory 101 textbooks have you seen that state "the dorian mode uses the white keys from D to D."?
That is true as far as it goes... but it does not give you any information about the relationship between the notes in the scale...
Or, if you prefer, "you can play a Dorian mode by starting on the second note of any major scale." Which still doesn't tell you much.
A dorian mode has these intervals:
W-H-W-W-W-H-W
In any key, from any starting note. (Remember to read this as "Take a note, add a note a whole step higher, another a half step higher than that..." and keep going. It is really self evident on the fretted dulcimer.)
Now compare it to a "minor" scale (Aeolian mode="Natural Minor."):
W-H-W-W-H-W-W
Notice anything?
Yep, the sixth scale degree is different.... and that is not immediately apparent if you played 'em on the white keys of the piano.
Heres a major scale (Ionian Mode:)
W-W-H-W-W-W-H
And here's a Mixolydian mode:
W-W-H-W-W-H-W
Notice that the Mixolydian is like the major scale for the first few notes (major third) and then like the minor scale, with a "flat" seventh? (The interval of a whole step between the seventh note and the octave, also note the interval of a half step between the sixth and seventh.)
And that, my friends, is why you'll sometimes hear the term "minor seventh" used with a major chord. Sure, it's wrong, but maybe now you can see where the term comes from.
Don't worry, I still second your statement that anyone who wants to learn basic theory can get a lot out of a piano. Particularly as regards chords, inversions, yadda yadda.
Still, if you want to understand the relationship between modes, scales and intervals, get a dulcimer.
Plus you can't play the piano on the porch of yer log cabin in the rain.
Jean Ritchie would be so proud.
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2010 : 11:45:47 AM
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| Mark is right on, as usual, and I agree with Kapila Kane. As a jazz pianist (and old timey banjo guy), maybe I can spread some light on the subject. Before there were keys in European music, there were modes, 8 of them. Originally, there were 5 pentatonic (5 notes) scales. The black keys on the piano are vestiges of these modes - start on any black key, and you get a mode. For instance, you can play "Pretty Polly" or "The Wagoner's Lad" on the black keys - the songs are pentatonic. Now to the white keys! The Ionian mode is present in any major key, but is easiest to see on the C scale (C to C). As Mark pointed out, C to D is a whole step (C to C# is a half step), D to E is a whole step, E to F is a half step, and so on. Next is the Dorian mode, D to D on the white keys (W[E] H[F] W[G] W[A] W[B] H[C] W[D}). You can play "Scarbouough Fair" on the white keys with D as the base. Now, I know it's complicated, but this mode can be moved anywhere on the keyboard by observing the rule (W H W W W H W) - for instance, starting with C, (C D Eb F G A Bb C). So the mode is "not quite minor". So, E-E= Lydian, F-F= Lydian, G-G= Mixolydian ("Old Joe Clark", "June Apple", etc) A-A= Aeolean, the true minor scale (note that A minor is the relative minor for C, because both keys use only white keys), B-B= Locrean, aka "The Devil's Mode". As for working out things on the piano, Dizzy Guillespe, when asked by Marian McPartland (on Piano Jazz) why he composed all of his tunes on the piano, said "Because it's all ther on the piano". I hope this helps. |
keaka |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2010 : 11:51:48 AM
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| One more thing - Alan Akaka wants me to learn a song called "Hana", favored by Jules Ah See. The recording he gave me is by Felix Slatkin, a Hollywood composer and music director. Jules is playing on the record in B11 tuning. It is very difficult to figure out what is going on with reverb-maxed string section and orchestra on the recording when Jules isn't playing. So, I put on the CD, sat at my piano, and chorded along with the recording. I got the chord progression and the Key (E, btw) on the piano and then played with the record on my steel until I got it figured out (I think!). I'll find out when I see Alan next Thursday. |
keaka |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2010 : 2:56:30 PM
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| The ONLY reason I can ever grasp any piece of the discussions of theory here is because I taught myself how to play some basic piano as a teenager. (Probably shoulda stopped at that, but it's too late now...) |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2010 : 4:33:27 PM
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So much discussion for just 12 notes! I still favor what Slipry1 calls "the peoples' key", "G". Good fer Dobro (now know as "resophonic guitar"), banjar, mandolin and fiddle. Pretty good for "taropatch", also. After staring at the chord chart in my brother's old
Alfred's Basic Guitar" (The cool chord chart the showed the circle of 5ths and 4ths, the chords for the various keys so that even a kid could learn to transpose, etc, is NOW OUT OF PRINT! This lack of action might could be considered an act of musical terrorism, perpetuating untold ignorance for the masses.) Modes are cool to learn, they reach way back. The piano is cool, but not everyone has one. Any tool that can stave off ignorance is to be employed. |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2010 : 9:46:35 PM
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| I just ax my frens liʻdat |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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Kapila Kane
Ha`aha`a
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 07:35:06 AM
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quote:
Appalachian dulcimer & the hammered dulcimer are not even distantly related.
Yah, I goof...
I occasionally worked with a Hammer Dulcimer player before she ran off to Alaska.
Something about playing in tune and my fiddle.
It just popped out, I was thinking Mountain Dulcimer.
But where are the sharps and flats marked on this cute instrument?
yes, you can see the distances and frets...
but no black and white.
On piano, you SEE that it's not a natural, if it's a white key, it's a natural, if it's a black key, it's a sharp OR flat, depending on your direction of inflection.
raise a letter note it's sharp, lower one, it's a flat.
And if you're noticing WHERE there is and ain't a black key in-between, you'll start to see note, chord spacing and structure, how to alter one note within a larger chord and how that sounds, High and Low, middle, and repeating patterns--visually and aurally.
Yes, there may be more advanced stuff down the road...Yes Virginia, there are E sharps, F flats, and I hate to tell 'ya, double sharps and double flats.
but WE DON'T NEED THAT kind of talk here in the patch!
As Jack Nicholson said as a Marine,, "The truth?, You can't handle the truth!"
When Jack says, "'jus press" it's not so nice n' easy.
EVERYTHING is hard the first time you go past your current knowledge and comfort zone.
I remember someone showing me my first chord--G--on a regular tuned guitar.
It's just insane to make your fingers do that!
Of course if you can't play our taropatch G, may I suggest finger painting?
and the Accordian, you'll have to have mirrors and stand on your head to see your keyboard.
Even though In North Dakota slack accordian the motto is, "jus' squish'--und have some Strudle und Bier.
Politically incorrect--er...sorry Vern.
Trombone? I don't want to talk about it.
In the category of Beating a Dead Horse, I nominate this one! |
Edited by - Kapila Kane on 01/06/2010 07:38:09 AM |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 09:26:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kapila Kane
I occasionally worked with a Hammer Dulcimer player before she ran off to Alaska.
Someone one told me that dulcimers sound best when hammered. But I believe they were referring to the listener.
quote:
In the category of Beating a Dead Horse, I nominate this one!
But in what key? And won't purists complain if it's not a "traditional" horse?  |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 09:58:17 AM
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quote:
I still favor what Slipry1 calls "the peoples' key", "G"
"If the people's key is the key of C,
Then what is the key of the bourgeoisie?
I ask the question most sincerely,
In which key do they play?"
--Central Park Sheiks, 1976 |
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slipry1
Ha`aha`a
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 10:46:53 AM
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| Y'know, I don't recall where I learned that "the people's key is G", but it was during the time I was immersed in old timey music. Maybe it IS C!? Hmmmm...... |
keaka |
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Theory idea...PIANO for guitar, uke and strummies.
