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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
 Posted - 03/15/2010 : 4:25:59 PM
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Basketball? I know that one,teach. Bats are used in Vampire Movies! Wolves, too. "Listen! Children of the night! What music they make!" Musta been wolf music. Is that what Joni made? I think Wanda's Ma called it Screaming Banshee. That's sorta like an Irish Witch, I think. That brings us back to "The Wizzard Of Oz." In Oz, there was a Horse Of A Different Color. I don't know if that was a racial epethet. I never know much, but I ain't lost! I ain't no girl, even if I do have got Brown Eyes, but I have it on good authority that means I'm fulla &* @ # up to my eyeballs. You Blue-eyed & other-color-eyed types are a pint low. Better get in for service soon, before the Check Engine lights on your foreheads come on. Now what was that about bebedees? I forget what I was gonna say. Sweetie, is it time for my meds?
Unko Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 02:50:18 AM
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| What have you guys done to my husband? OK, I going make Uncle get out of the house more. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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Tetapu
Akahai
China
98 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 03:40:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives
So the question is about composer's intentions... The notion has been shared on this forum many times that a song should not be performed unless the performer knows everything they can know about the song - who wrote it, who it was written for, and under what circumstances, even contacting the haku mele if he or she is still with us. This, I have always assumed, means singing the melody and the lyrics the way the composer wrote them. So why should this not apply to a mainland pop song performed by a Hawaiian performer?
So I think there is a big difference between "a song performed by a Hawaiian" and "a Hawaiian song." Lots of definitions of "Hawaiian music" have been thrown around, and I don't think that "Over The Rainbow/What A Wonderful World" fits any of those definitions. (If Amy Hanaiali'i sings "Jingle Bells," is it suddenly a Hawaiian song?) Lots of songs have been co-opted by the local Hawaiian community. "Blue Darling," "Drinking Champagne," "Sweet Someone," and "For The Good Times" come to mind as the songs we sang at lu'au when I was growing up. But just because these songs are popular in Hawai'i doesn't make them Hawaiian songs.
ok, well, you are absolutely rigt, "Hawaiian" is a very broad term, used pretty loosely, Barak Obama has been called Hawaiian.
anyway, as far as music and art goes, there are several categories which all fall under the English word "Hawaiian" umbrella, as I see it
#1, music, food, dance, art, etc... created by native Hawaiians, in a form true to pre-contact cultural traditions
it should be noted that I do not believe that music / art created by native Hawaiians which is after the manner and style of foreigners, exclusively, is Hawaiian. that is in fact just foreign, and it doesnt really matter who does it. for example, a Hawaiian playing flamenco guitar or belly dancing is not doing anything Hawaiian at all
#2, music / art which is created by native Hawaiians which has been influenced by outside learning, and brougt in to add to the traditional pre-contact culture.
this includes guitars, ukuleles, used to accompany te traditional language, and Queen Lili'uokalani's compositions, etc.. including English music created by native Hawaiians, as well as female Hula dancing
#3, music / art etc.. created or performed by foreigners, which is after the manner of the pre-contact Hawaiians, or anything Hawaiians have since created, including the use of Guitar, Ukulele, and other dance accompaniments, after the manner of native Hawaiian mind work
this category is from the very early foreigners who played guitar and ukulele, and even composed songs in the native Hawaiian language, learned to dance Hula, chant, etc, after the manner of native Hawaiians
#4, music / art / food etc.. created by the foreigners, which is their own creations, using dictinctly Hawaiian elements, calling upon the Hawaiian Crafts and traditions, and after the manner of Hawaiians. Original creations that are not Native Hawaiian in origin, but are created for the native Hawaiian people, and those who they share their indigenous land and culture with.
this includes any local or mainlander who has a strong affinity to Hawaiians and Hawaiian culture, and even believes themself to be much like Hawaiians, and are integrated into the culture, or kama'aina enough to know what Hawaiian is.
these people help to perpetuate hawaiian language and culture. such as the the Haole boy in Hapa, Don Ho, etc..
#5, this what i think is NOT Hawaiian, but some may disagree: music stolen from Hawaiians and used in art forms away from Hawaii, by people with little or no concern for Hawaiian culture or its perpetuation.
this, in my opinion, includes Joni, the guy from that music star tv show singing IZ's music, and even mark hansen
those are haole people out for themselves, detached from the hawaiian culture, using it to further their own interests, at the expense of Hawaiian "Mana"
native Hawaiians, the superstitious, traditional, and powerful, refer to those people as "Bleeders" of Hawaiians
they take and take, but do not give back to the Hawaiians
at its root, all things "Hawaiian" must have "Hawaiians" at heart
without Hawaiians, hawaii is just a few cold rocks, you could call them sandwich islands, but what are you going to do with them? have some tribe of haole people running around in leaf clothing, shaking sticks or something?
useless
Hawaiians & their gods, history, culture and ancestry are the Root and Source of all things Hawaiian
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Na Ke Akua E Malama Kakou |
Edited by - Tetapu on 03/16/2010 05:39:36 AM |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 03:49:28 AM
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History is replete (yup, that's a word) with individuals and groups being taken advantage of and abused by other individuals and/or groups working under varying degrees of sensibility. "When they say it's not about the money, it's about the money." - H. L. Mencken.
Much of what passes for existance on this planet is unpleasant. Let us, therefore, search out, enjoy and work to perpetuate that which is pleasant. |
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Tetapu
Akahai
China
98 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 04:08:53 AM
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honestly, as for intellectual property and what not, i dont think anyone has a right to take anything from anyone else's without giving them proper credit.
if you like "Hawaiian Music" it means you like Ka'au Crater boys, and i can't hardly even think of a single Hawaiian album without some sort of foreign song in it.
but you see, they make it Hawaiian. that's how i leanred to play music, i sing lots of popular songs, but i make them all hawaiian style, my own style.
the main thing is that you have taken something and added your own creativity to it.
just like when copying sentences out of te encyclopedia, there is nothing wrong with it so long as you add your own creativity to the sentence pattern and wording.
copying it outright can wind u up in jail or something
same with a song.
IZ's song took two great songs, Over the rainbow, and What a wonderful world, each by themselves kind of lame to sing, and created his own new song, with perfect rythm and flow
that is totally to his credit, 100%
the same as every song of ka'au CB's is totally to their credit
the same as how 80% of oldies songs have been remade into reggae, rock, grunge, rap, techno, jazz, you name it
Lisa Ono comes to mind when i think of outstanding Bossanova singers who sing largely other people's music. "I'm an old cow hand" is totally hers, and nobody could argue otherwise, she even owns the most traditional of American heritage songs. both her and IZ do "take me home country roads" and i can't even decide who's i like better, but i like them both alot more than the original
that's simply awesome.
that little uke theif in the stars tv program on the other hand copied IZ word for word, note for note. ZERO creativity
he is a thief
end of story
i mean i sing alot of songs exactly as i hear them, especially Hawaiian versions, and i may be able to get away with a small bar show or something with that, but not on national TV.. or on my own CD,
no way
just like you couldnt go up on stage and play ozzies exact song.. but add your own embelishments and creativity, and its all yours
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Na Ke Akua E Malama Kakou |
Edited by - Tetapu on 03/16/2010 05:41:44 AM |
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rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 07:49:59 AM
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Yep. Definately something about bebedees. I'll think of it later. Maybe tomorrow, at Tara.
Unko Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 10:36:35 AM
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| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. |
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Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 11:06:53 AM
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quote:
IZ's song took two great songs, Over the rainbow, and What a wonderful world, each by themselves kind of lame to sing,
No disrespect to your personal taste, or Iz's amazing artistry--but I have to take exception to that. There's nothing lame about singing what the composer intended.
My personal fav version of "What a Wonderful World" remains the one Satch sang. And I'm also partial to the original version of "Rainbow" as sung by a very young, and supremely talented Judy Garland. Both hew pretty close to the songs as written.
That doesn't mean I don't like what Iz did with it--on the contrary, I love it.
quote:
both her and IZ do "take me home country roads" and i can't even decide who's i like better, but i like them both alot more than the original
Actually, Iz is covering a recording by Toots Hibbert, who created that Reggae arrangement many years ago. Can't recall the LP -- yes it was that long ago---but it totally smokes.
Again, no disrespect to you, or Iz. Or any of the thousands of Hawaiian bands who play it that way.
But it just kinda proves the point that, for a creative musician, the whole world is one big community.
That is why I play music from all over the world.
Well, that and the fact that if you know one song from every country, where ever you go you can get someone to buy you a beer.
(With a tip o' the hat to Kenny Hall....) |
Edited by - Mark on 03/16/2010 11:07:57 AM |
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markwitz
`Olu`olu
USA
841 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 12:19:52 PM
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How about this version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2aHibr_cpw |
"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain |
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Tetapu
Akahai
China
98 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 2:39:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by thumbstruck
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
i agree, especially when it comes to software, cars, shoes, and other products
the WTO and the U.S. Patent Office, however, dont share our sincerest opinions. Lack of Aloha maybe.
quote:
Originally posted by mark
No disrespect to your personal taste, or Iz's amazing artistry--but I have to take exception to that. There's nothing lame about singing what the composer intended.
My personal fav version of "What a Wonderful World" remains the one Satch sang. And I'm also partial to the original version of "Rainbow" as sung by a very young, and supremely talented Judy Garland. Both hew pretty close to the songs as written.
i think you may be missing my point a little here. the point i was making was about creativity and originality being the mother of all legitimacy. even like Opihi moemoe has never been played the same by any 2 Artists.
i get that its fun, and its practically all I do, but it definitely doesnt make it mine. i am just copying someone else.
in the case where i combine two different songs into one, that is my original work, and i could patent it, record it, label it, and sell it as mine.
or in the case where i take a slack key composition and play it as the creator transcribed it, its not my song, however sincerely flattering i may be. On the other hand, if i take that same song and improvise, using my own heart and feeling and adding my own style, giving it a ersonal touch or twist, then is mine, and i can record it, label it, and release it as mine (giving credit to its original composer the same way any original singer would give credit to the writer of his songs.)
quote:
Originally posted by markActually, Iz is covering a recording by Toots Hibbert, who created that Reggae arrangement many years ago. Can't recall the LP -- yes it was that long ago---but it totally smokes.
Again, no disrespect to you, or Iz. Or any of the thousands of Hawaiian bands who play it that way.
But it just kinda proves the point that, for a creative musician, the whole world is one big community.
That is why I play music from all over the world.
right, if its a reggae version of The Star Spangled banner, it's total credit to the reggae band, and in small print somewhere they will write something about Francis Scott Key, which nobody will ever even read or care about.
samething with "what a wonderful world"
Michael Buble is one artist who I think walks the line between copy and creativity rather nicely. alot of his songs are direct copies, but he relies heavily on his own personal vocal style, and his emphasis on his clear and beautiful voice is what makes it unique.
Il Divo is a group who sing songs in the same manner as Luciano Pavarotti, but they again have the superb voice quality angle, and a 3 part vocal division.
that's creativity. and for the "creative artist" you mentioned, every song in the world is available to his interpretation of it.
but copying IZ's song, or making a copy of a copy, is just degenerate. if he had gone back and re-thought the 2 original songs and combined them in a different way, that would be legitimate creativity.
but there was nothing creative at all about it.
hence, its not artistry, just a bleed. copying someone else's directly, something i dont really think would have happened if the original artist wasnt an obscure Hawaiian Island Treasure only.
that's why he thought he could get away with it.. which is bigotry
but in taking from ethnic cultures around the world, the songs are not and never will be "freely yours"
whether the song is ethnically iriqois, created by the Iriqois people, or Blackfoot, or Tahitian, or Samoan, or even african, or any other ethnic song or art form, you are stealing from the culture, bleeding them, and it is NOT right, and it is NOT your oyster to exploit.
if you do sing an Iriqois song or other ethnic song, you need to do it the spirit of the iriqois people, respecting them. turning their sacred songs into jazz tunes is unacceptable unless that tune and band is distinctly in touch with native iriqois traditions and people, and are loved and welcomed by their community
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Na Ke Akua E Malama Kakou |
Edited by - Tetapu on 03/16/2010 2:41:39 PM |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 3:01:49 PM
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| To quote Eugene Krabs of "Spongebob Squarepants" fame, "But what about the money, I mean, what about the children?" If you speak a language, you have copied those you were around. Art can be permanent (statues, paintings and the like) or ephemeral (no, Retro, that has nothing to do with the Food Network). Give credit where credit is due, no be ashame of da accent. Play it loud an play it proud, jus no make one mistake bumbye dey talk stink when you play. Humanity is deriviative. What do we have, but what we have recieved? Sure, we can scramble things up into a "fresh" form, but still, get ony 12 notes an limited time fo play'em. A wise man once said, "Jus' press." |
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Tetapu
Akahai
China
98 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 4:19:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by thumbstruck
To quote Eugene Krabs of "Spongebob Squarepants" fame, "But what about the money, I mean, what about the children?" If you speak a language, you have copied those you were around. Art can be permanent (statues, paintings and the like) or ephemeral (no, Retro, that has nothing to do with the Food Network). Give credit where credit is due, no be ashame of da accent. Play it loud an play it proud, jus no make one mistake bumbye dey talk stink when you play. Humanity is deriviative. What do we have, but what we have recieved? Sure, we can scramble things up into a "fresh" form, but still, get ony 12 notes an limited time fo play'em. A wise man once said, "Jus' press."
as bruddah Madeiros pointed out, music is melody, harmony, rhythm and form, and also various instruments, beyond the 12 notes.
for thousands of years the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Thai, Khmer, Viet, India ppl, Muslems, Arabs, Africans, Melanesians, Micronesians, Native Americans, Polynesians, Europeans etc have been composing music with the same scale. none of it sounds even remotely alike.
even the americans ineach genre, have never even sounded the same.
Beethoven would disagree that there were limitations to what can be produced
you could add up every song ever played on the earth, times it by a trillion and still not even become close to stifling creative potential .
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Na Ke Akua E Malama Kakou |
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Tetapu
Akahai
China
98 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 4:41:44 PM
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ok, the only problem with copying is when money is being made, or recognition is being given, or fame or fortune is being made, credit is being taken, or not given, etc..
and that kid with IZ's song has ridden pretty big wave of fame and recognition for his song, getting credit for it, and sitting silently accumulating as much as he can get, never saying a word about IZ.
it's IZ's song. end of story.
to copy someone's creative composition and interpretation of a song is far worse than copying the original outright .. where money, fame, fortune, recognition etc are concerned
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Na Ke Akua E Malama Kakou |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 5:38:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tetapu
and that kid with IZ's song has ridden pretty big wave of fame and recognition for his song, getting credit for it, and sitting silently accumulating as much as he can get, never saying a word about IZ.
it's IZ's song. end of story.
And yet, while I know of IZ, I know of his performance of these songs, and I know of the Louis Armstrong & Judy Garland versions spoken of earlier --- I have no idea who "that kid" is, what he did, or whatever show it was. Not long from now, he'll be long forgotten and IZ will be remembered. Have no doubt of that.
One of the most popular television shows over the past nine years has been "American Idol." Without consulting the internet, just off the top of your head, name the past winners. Besides Kelly Clarkson and Carrie Underwood, where are they now?
Kawika, do an internet search for "flash in the pan." IZ's memory is safe. Relax and make more music. |
Edited by - Retro on 03/16/2010 6:05:43 PM |
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PearlCityBoy
Lokahi
USA
432 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 8:01:13 PM
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Is this the American Idol dude, Jason Castro, in question? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVhepGj21Bw . He did change it up a bit, except for "chiminey"  . I think Iz's legacy is safe.
FYI, after the performance, Simon Cowell asked if that was a cover of the version from that "Hawaiian guy." If I recall correctly, Jason did acknowledge Iz by name and talked about how he liked the arrangement. The American Idol contestants do lots of covers, sometimes they're required to, and the judges are very critical of those who are too "karaoke" and don't "make it their own." Jason came in about 5th or 6th place.
Personally, I liked Katharine McPhee's version of the song much better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAg9C0OQr8c&feature=related. Don't know if she copied someone else's arrangement, but I loved it anyway. Katharine should have won--she came in 2nd to Taylor Hicks (who?) in the year she competed.
Aloha,
Doug
P.S. Bruddah Slkho, we off topic enough yet?  |
Edited by - PearlCityBoy on 03/16/2010 8:23:22 PM |
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Joni Mitchell's outrageous ideas about slack key
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