| Author |
 Topic  |
|
rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
 Posted - 03/09/2010 : 7:29:13 PM
|
Wouldn't other players have used those strings as well? It seems like most good players would have investigated more than just 2 strings for melody & lead parts.Peter Medeiros shows a lot of different pairs for all the tunings in his book. That would be a good place to learn many different ways to use tunings.
Unko Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
 |
|
|
hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 04:32:36 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by rendesvous1840
Wouldn't other players have used those strings as well? It seems like most good players would have investigated more than just 2 strings for melody & lead parts.Peter Medeiros shows a lot of different pairs for all the tunings in his book. That would be a good place to learn many different ways to use tunings.
Unko Paul
Maybe they do, Unko. But I don't hear any recorded evidence of it.
There are a lot of assumptions in the assertion that "good players would have investigated more than just 2 strings." The Hawaiian musician - until recently - did not have a "book" to go to learn slack key. (I grew up on a steady diet of the first pressing of the Keola Beamer book, but that was it.) But even if they had a book, many Hawaiians feel that is not the way one learns Hawaiian things. So if one learned to play from Uncle Ray or Auntie Alice and they thought about the fretboard one way, it takes motivation and sheer will to break out of and beyond the teachings of those kumu.
It is more a cultural than a musical thing, but the Hawaiian slack key guitar player has to make a decision between following the teaching of the kumu or going in their own direction. And trying something new is not always rewarded. Sometimes it is even admonished. (And here I would direct one to the threads on whether or not what Daniel Ho plays is "slack key" and whether or not it is worthy of accolades.)
I know this... I have never seen Atta's tunings widely cited in the slack key literature. This makes no sense to me since "Atta's F" is a tuning that a player could use to make an easier transition from standard guitar tuning to slack key. But who knows that Atta even used this tuning? It was taught to me by a Hawaiian entertainer who was taught it by... Atta himself. Atta didn't write a book, and to my knowledge, Atta never took on students. So while we should rejoice that we have the instructional books now, they are not all complete sources of this information.
|
Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
|
|
|
Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 09:31:24 AM
|
I think that there probably is a transmission channel for Atta's style (several players, including George Kuo, Ozzie, Peter Medeiros, and Cyril, have made a point of mentioning his influence and/or guidance), but the man himself seems to have been of an unassertive, even retiring nature. It makes for an interesting personality puzzle--a prodigiously accomplished player who nevertheless seemed quite comfortable backing others. The session-guy role would be less surprising if it weren't clear that Atta was the creative and technical equal of any of the giants he backed.
|
|
|
|
Mark
Ha`aha`a
USA
1628 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 6:53:39 PM
|
quote:
The session-guy role would be less surprising if it weren't clear that Atta was the creative and technical equal of any of the giants he backed.
I'm sure if you thought about that for a moment, Russell, you'd realize that it is almost universal: the best players are rarely those in the spotlight. Regardless of style.
There is something quite amazing about a true sideman (sorry for the sexist term, I don't know of a non-gender specific alternative) whose passion is making the one standing center stage sound good.
Nina Gerber springs to mind...
Atta Isaacs blows me away, fer sure.
I treasure the few Atta Isaacs solos on the "Two Slack Key Guitars" album. Wow!!!
|
|
|
|
hwnmusiclives
`Olu`olu
USA
580 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 07:17:11 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Russell Letson
I think that there probably is a transmission channel for Atta's style (several players, including George Kuo, Ozzie, Peter Medeiros, and Cyril, have made a point of mentioning his influence and/or guidance), but the man himself seems to have been of an unassertive, even retiring nature. It makes for an interesting personality puzzle--a prodigiously accomplished player who nevertheless seemed quite comfortable backing others. The session-guy role would be less surprising if it weren't clear that Atta was the creative and technical equal of any of the giants he backed.
I agree with both Russell and Mark. I have been having a side conversation with someone else about the unsung steel guitarists - most passed away now, but men and women who put the "classic" into what we consider to be classic recordings. But who can name the steel player with Julia Nui's Kama'ainas? (For some reason I bet Russell can!)
There's something to be said for just sitting back in the shadows and "doin' your thang." People can and do notice. Whether or not they can talk about you by name years hence when you are merely dust is a matter of ego and nothing else.
I cannot fully elucidate my other point, so I won't try. (It has been rattling around in my head unformed for about a month, but whenever I speak prematurely, I do not merely stick my foot in my mouth. I usually wedge it firmly in my own 'okole.) But it has to do with the previous thread on Joni Mitchell and the answer to the question "what is slack key." There is importance in both the oral tradition of learning slack key as well as in the more recently published instruction primers. But if you only have access to one or the other, is what you end up playing really "slack key?" What elements of the art form can be gotten from one method of learning that cannot be attained from the other method, and vice-versa? At the end of the day, that depends on how we define "slack key," I think, and at this point - despite the volume of input from this forum - I still can't. And I think it's because we're putting boundaries around what it can be and what it absolutely cannot be.
|
Join me for the history of Hawaiian music and its musicians at Ho`olohe Hou at www.hoolohehou.org. |
|
|
|
Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 07:28:20 AM
|
In the course of writing the Atta section of the book, I put on headphones so I could focus on his parts on the Maile Serenaders and Gabby Band sessions, and it was a delight--the swing influence is incredibly strong (which helps explain Auntie Alice's view that Gabby wasn't playing old-style--he emphatically wasn't). In describing how he played with Gabby, Atta told Skylark Rosetti that thanks to their different tunings, "I had a C tuning, I had a low pitch. I play the inside, so he was high and I was low."
|
|
|
|
Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 07:47:01 AM
|
No time for an extended response to Bill's reflection on how one fully participates in a tradition, but I've observed several "invasions" of folk traditions by enthusiasts from outside their original boundaries (and been part of a couple)--blues and Appalachian music, "gypsy jazz" (a label some find questionable), flamenco, Cajun. In each case, middle-class city people (often but not universally young men) find something in the music and/or the supporting culture that they admire, and they want to be part of it. This was certainly the case of the citybillies and white-blues boys of the Folk Scare. The best of them (for example, Stefan Grossman and the late Mike Seeger) were able to enter fully into the musical life of the tradition and help to preserve and even extend it--and they did so by seeking out mentors from inside the traditions. The rest of us had to be content with recordings of the originals and transcriptions and lesson books produced by the lucky (and industrious) explorers. I'm not sure exactly what this does to the original traditions--50 years ago, country blues was dying with its authentic practitioners, but gypsy jazz continues to evolve among young Roma and their gadjo pals in Europe (while Yanks tend to practice a more backward-looking version). It's a complex dance, and I suspect that the traditions, like living creatures, respond and adapt to their environments, and "outsiders" are certainly elements of those environments.
|
|
|
|
rendesvous1840
Ha`aha`a
USA
1055 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 11:16:57 AM
|
Alright, youse all lost me. Although I did understand the part about foot up the okole-been there, done that.
I'm not opening that "What is slack key" can of worms again. Been there, done that, too. It would seem from what's been said that Atta was not afraid to go beyond the tradition. And, with Auntie Alice's comment that Gabby & Sonny Chillingworth were "hopelessly modern",it seems they weren't afraid to go beyond the tradition. Peter's book is very new, but the title says "A Lifetime Of Study", implying a lot of time has been spent learning and honing the art form. I won't put words in anybodys mouth, but if it's in the book, my opinion is the author must feel it's worth teaching. And somewhere along the way, said author must have come to learning these exact concepts of other strings than two or three high ones.
"Going beyond the tradition"- Now there's a can full of wigglin worms if ever I saw one. I'll stick to fishing where worms are concerned.
Unko Paul |
"A master banjo player isn't the person who can pick the most notes.It's the person who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello |
|
|
|
PearlCityBoy
Lokahi
USA
432 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2010 : 08:43:22 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by hwnmusiclives
Doug, while you're sliding through tunings one string and one whole step at a time, if you enjoy Atta's playing, there is another tuning to explore. I don't think it is widely documented, but I call it "Atta's F."
CFDGBE
This is Drop C with the G on the fifth string tuned down to F. Or, you might think of this as standard guitar tuning on the first four strings with a root and a fifth on the bottom if playing in the key of F. Atta played standard tuning very well. So he would play this tuning as if he were playing standard tuning on the first four strings and just reach for the bass strings if he were playing the I (F) or V (C) chords. He might also bar at the fifth fret, so then he would have the bass notes of the IV (Bb) chord as well. This is a tuning he used frequently, such as on the duets album he did with his brother, steel guitarist Barney Isaacs (called "Hau'oli") or on the New Hawaiian Band albums. It will largely be mistaken for standard tuning if you listen because he is playing a lot of chord melody all over the fretboard - all played on the first four strings as if he were playing standard tuning.
Atta also had an interesting approach to Open G. He didn't tune the guitar any differently. But... While most players would play the melody on the first string and harmonize the melody a fourth below on the third string, Atta would play the melody on the second string and harmonize the melody a fourth below on the fourth string. Players who harmonize on the first and third strings have two open pedal tones to let ring out - the second string and the fourth string creating an open fourth below and a third above the melody. But Atta was letting the first and third string ring out as pedal tones - giving him an octave below and a fifth above the melody. This gave his playing a very different color - especially when he would roll the first four strings.
Howzit Bill,
Mahalo for the info on Atta's F. I'll have to try that tuning out too. I always look forward to your postings, as they are full of interesting insights and anecdotes.
I especially like your comments about the old recordings, to which most of us don't have access. However, I appreciate where you're coming from regarding their importance. A while back I was at a buddy's house and we were noodling "Nani Kauai." Abruptly, my friend stops and asks, "Do you want to listen to the song by the person who wrote it?" Being totally caught off guard, I said, "Are you kidding me? Wasn't that song written by Lizzie Alohikea a long time ago?" My buddy replied, "Yeah, want to hear it?"
I thought he was BSing me until he pulled out an old record player and a box of 78s. He dug around a bit and found the record and played it. Long story short, I had chicken skin hearing the composer's original recording--it was so beautiful and it gave me a small peek into a long lost era. Needless to say, I was in awe with what I heard. Although it had no fancy electronic gimmicks, it puts most current recordings to shame.
Anyhow Bill, keep the posts coming!
Aloha,
Doug |
Edited by - PearlCityBoy on 03/12/2010 08:48:02 AM |
|
|
|
thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2168 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2010 : 08:38:13 AM
|
| Slack key, as with other styles, has myriad possibilities. Playing or jamming with someone else opens up more possibilities for experimenting. If someone else is holding the rhythm, you can concentrate on ebellishing the melody. Different tunings call for different fingering and thumb work. I was talking with Slipry1 yesterday, lamenting that too often, pickers spend way too much time playing by themselves. Practice is essential to progress, but a big part of music is listening (or learning to listen) while one is playing. CDs and concerts can give a false impression of playing because of featuring solo work whereas most Folk and Ethnic music is a team effort. |
|
|
|
slkho
`Olu`olu
740 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2010 : 10:54:30 AM
|
I'm amazed how quickly you all get off topic, jeesh!
~slkho |
|
|
|
Waibaddayu
Aloha
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2010 : 07:05:43 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by slkho
I'm amazed how quickly you all get off topic, jeesh!
~slkho
Jes like driving to Waiana'e and ending up in Waikiki hah? As why hahd!
Big mahalo to bruddah Rik fo da "gift" in da mail. I going kokua da next buggah in need of Hiilawe in Open G! Malama pono!
Palaina |
No worry! Can!
Place your name. Kau Inoa. |
Edited by - Waibaddayu on 03/17/2010 07:11:08 AM |
|
|
|
Ozzie
Aloha
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 7:25:11 PM
|
Dear Palaina
I've tabbed Hi`ilawe in Taro Patch quite a few years ago. This was meant for when a student (mostly guys) wants to try singing. The key of G was better to sing in and you sing and play the melody so you (or someone listening) will know if you're off key! Then again, gotta make sure your guitar is tuned too.
Easier to play and one I've shared often. I did the original tab in Drop C the way Sonny taught me. Also tabbed it in Gabby's C and C6th along the way. More fun to sing and play the song in Drop C or some variant but Open G is nice too.
Don't know how you going contact me though - maybe somebody you close to may have a copy to share or you already got what you needed.
me ke aloha,
Ozzie
|
Ozzie |
|
|
|
Peter Medeiros
`Olu`olu
546 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 7:27:04 PM
|
Eh Oz,
We need one portagee joke from you.
PM |
|
|
|
Ozzie
Aloha
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 8:11:59 PM
|
Kay Kumu,
Just for you. Heard about the Portagee whose wife had triplets? He went out looking for the other two guys. |
Ozzie |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Hi'ilawe in Open G
