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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2010 : 12:09:21 PM
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Okay, I understand the position of not dictating, but I have been frustrated many times in the past when asking a person of vastly superior knowlege a question, and instead of an opinion (with propper cautions and caveats) told to reserch it. Now, when I was in college that was expected, but if a knowlegeable person kicks the can down the road like that all the time, would you not end up with amateurs making poor conclusions?
I would rather have the "experts" offer an opinion with caveats and cautions than be constantly sent to do research.
Do you not think the more educated person should offer an opinion and guidance? People do have the ability to decide on accuracy after hearing a variety of opinions.
In the case of this thread--Hawaiian music, and other thing subjective--sometimes of course there is no definitive answer but it should be okay for "experts" to offer information and give input and opinions. |
Bob |
Edited by - RWD on 12/09/2010 12:57:48 PM |
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kuulei88
Akahai
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2010 : 12:55:50 PM
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Hi Bob --
believe me, I understand your frustration. I am equally frustrated by the armies of self-appointed "experts" who end up kicking around folks like you who are sincerely trying to become more informed about Hawaiian music.
What I have no problem offering is perspective. Not a single answer, but an assessment of information available.
There are things that are clearcut. For example, a mele is either a mele inoa or it is not a mele inoa; the determining factor is whether the name of the person honored appears in the mele. But if you were to ask me whether a Keali‘i Reichel song is Hawaiian, I would not offer an unequivocal "yes" or "no" without first weighing the information available to me. Any "yes" or "no" would be based on any number of questions I would ask first. There is no way to come up with a foolproof definition of "a Hawaiian song" that is going to apply to all songs out there. And if someone came along with a perspective opposite of mine, I would listen to what that personʻs reasons are for coming to a different conclusion than I have.
I actually do have problems when arguments end up at "my tutu said so." Well, what if the tutu did not have access to some information that would have resulted in a different answer?? What is more important than that, though, is this -- what is the basis for what tutu said? Then let me try to understand why tutu came to such a pronouncement. But donʻt expect me to swallow something just because someone insists that "their tutu said so."
The history of Hawaiian music is rife with these kinds of unfortunate situations being perpetrated by the armies of "experts." Many of them actually mean well; they are well-intentioned. But in their sincere love for the integrity of the tradition, folks get caught up in "my way or the highway," often backed up by "my tutu said so." Iʻve been very slow in my publishing to write about this because it is so fraught with a long history of pain and the double violence of people beating up on each other. That has to stop. Somehow.
And no, my tutu did not say so. I say so, because I believe that enough pain has already been perpetrated in the name of "protecting" the tradition. |
amy k |
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RWD
`Olu`olu
USA
850 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2010 : 1:05:44 PM
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I had to break off finishing my entry due to work but I have added to it a little. It must have been as you were responding so there is a slight disconnect between the two.
I do understand your position.
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Bob |
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Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2010 : 3:17:00 PM
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I can (somewhat nervously) claim expertise in two or three areas (Hawaiian music not among them), and the answer I find myself giving most often to non-factual questions is "It depends," followed by a list of factors that might affect whatever answer I am able to offer.
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2010 : 3:38:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kuulei88
But in their sincere love for the integrity of the tradition, folks get caught up in "my way or the highway," often backed up by "my tutu said so."
All of us who post to TP should keep this in front of us as we write; thanks, Amy. |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2173 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2010 : 5:09:23 PM
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I am just grateful for friends to jam with and tunes to learn. Also, digital tuners. Jus' press. Sometimes the best analysis comes from jamming with your friends. Put something under glass and watch it die- what was that, Slipry1?
Some guy studying bugs, wonders why they don't move any more, forgetting that he pinned the bugs to the mat to better enable him to look at them. |
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Trev
Lokahi
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2010 : 02:49:42 AM
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In the case of dictionaries, their function is do DESCRIBE how language is used, not to dictate what is ‘correct’. Far too many people seem to use it the latter way.
Language evolves, and varies from place to place. Dictionary definitions change over time, and over place. I was in an American aeroplane (airplane) and the pilot said that the plane would be landing ‘momentarily’. Apparently in America, this means ‘in a moment’. In the UK, it means ‘for a moment’. I was momentarily quite alarmed!
Similarly with traditional music, one can find tendencies, conventions that we can associate with one particular location. People learn from each other and things are passed down. But these, too, change and evolve over time.
An old flute player I knew said that in Ireland he used to be able to tell where people came from by the way they played – almost to the particular village. He said the greatest contribution to his musical education was getting a bicycle, so he could go and hear stuff from further afield. He went on to say that with the technology (which was probably cassettes at that time) people could learn from all sorts of sources, so certain regional ways of playing were becoming diluted.
Music has, and will, inevitably go through change and evolution. There are always people who find this exciting and vital, and there are always people who say ‘that’s not how they did it in the old days – it’s not ‘proper’ and they shouldn’t call it what we call our music’.
Time and time again in all sorts of musics, I’ve come across a fight between ‘traditionalists’ and ‘contemporary’ enthusiasts. I stay out of that type of thing – it never ends well. Suffice it to say I’ve a foot in both camps,
I wouldn’t claim to be an expert in anything, and certainly not in Hawaiian music. I know enough to know that there seem to be certain conventions that are common, but I would not presume to point a finger at any Hawaiian who played music and say ‘that’s not proper Hawaiian music’. I would think that’s a quick way to get a punch up the bracket.
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salmonella
Lokahi
240 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2010 : 06:53:27 AM
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I find, in my life, that often the difference between a question causing discourse and a question causing discontent is in how the question is asked, not so much what the question is.
In this thread, for instance, if I have understood the posts correctly, a good question for discourse may have been something like this....
"this song by (insert artist and link) has a different feel to it than this mele by (insert same artist and different link or different artist and link) what are the musical characteristics that differ between them and what are the reasons for, or causes of, these differences."
This enables the "experts" to help those of us who are not, to evaluate and make our own conclusions. It also cuts the elephatine question of "what is Hawaiian music" into manageable size pieces of digestible information.
And, not unimportant, it is not a subject line (for a post) that already makes anyone but the hardiest skip the thread completely and move on to threads less likely to raise their blood pressure.
Just a suggestion.
Dave |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2010 : 2:32:21 PM
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| I ka ʻōlelo ke ola. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2010 : 4:39:57 PM
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| `Ae. |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2010 : 11:48:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by noeau
I ka ʻōlelo ke ola.
"...i ka `ōlelo nō ka make."
We need to remember that when we are tempted to dis others. |
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noeau
Ha`aha`a
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2010 : 8:52:16 PM
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I ditto Amy K in all she says. I have tried to pass on the idea that while we respect the past and our elders we still can take the time to ask if something is accurate and true. If not, why not. And we all need to do the homework ourselves. We may get answers from those more schooled than us but we still need to decide whether we agree and then digest it more fully for each and every one of us so we may claim some form of ownership of the knowledge.
Every day we as players may have an opportunity to share our music. I have been asked to play Hawaiian music at various types of functions and every time I do I am thanked for reminding people about the beauty of Hawaiʻi and why they love the place so dearly. So far no one has asked if what I played was Hawaiian music. I am happy when people are affected in a positive way by what I play for them. But I also am transported back home when I play as well. So I guess Iʻm just trying to say that if we play the music of Hawaiʻi we are probably playing Hawaiian music. |
No'eau, eia au he mea pa'ani wale nō. |
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Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2010 : 08:13:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by noeau
So I guess Iʻm just trying to say that if we play the music of Hawaiʻi we are probably playing Hawaiian music.
And by phrasing it this way, please note, even Al is saying "my word is NOT law in this matter." Open to interpretation. Your mileage may vary. Don't fence me in. One size does not fit all. |
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thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2173 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2010 : 08:27:50 AM
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| Innovation and adaptation are part of the tradition. |
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