| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Basil Henriques
Lokahi
United Kingdom
225 Posts |
 Posted - 02/23/2011 : 02:09:53 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence
Someone I would like to mention in regard to this insider/outsider thing is Eric Clapton. As a white Brit trying to play U.S. southern black music he has always been somewhat of a outsider, and I have see him express this feeling a little even in fairly recent interviews. Yet, it does not seem to have changed his intent to master and play the blues, and he has even organized the "Crossroads Blues Festival" to celebrate this music form. I think he is quite accepted by many of the old blues masters (like BB King, etc.), but I would not be surprised that there are still a few that grumble that "that white Limey" has no business playing "their" music.
Some of it just boils down to "Non illegitimis carborundum", which is a true outsider's motto because it is not even real latin! 
Another "Limey" here reminding you that the bastardised latin colloquialism was originally adopted by your very own General Joseph Stilwell and later by Barry Goldwater |
 |
 |
|
|
thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2174 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2011 : 04:55:19 AM
|
Again showing that humans borrow.
Hey, Basil, ever get to Seattle? |
|
|
|
Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2011 : 06:40:50 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bau
IMO the mana of playing music of your own ancestral heritage is something that can not be duplicated realy by anyone not of that ancestry.
So - does that apply only to traditional Hawaiian chant then?
What about the songs that incorporate guitar, `ukulele, and other instrumentation that was NOT part of the Hawaiian ancestral heritage?
What about songs based on Christian hymns that were NOT part of the Hawaiian ancestral heritage?
What about songs that incorporated Western-style harmony & rhythms that were NOT part of the Hawaiian ancestral heritage (a style openly adopted by Nā Lani `Eha, in fact)?
quote:
Originally posted by Hookani
... if Michael Jackson's songs were translated to Hawaiian, is it now Hawaiian music?
If someone added Hawaiian words to an old Christian hymn, is it then Hawaiian music? Too late to stop THAT one. |
|
|
|
Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2011 : 06:48:04 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Momi
... the reason I post so rarely any more (and almost never read threads) is I got so angry after reading a thread about the winner of the Hawaiian Grammy two years ago that I decided to remove myself from the source of the aggravation.
There is a deep sense of "more Hawaiian than"-ness that underlies many posts in these discussions. It's unpleasant at any time, perhaps more so when it comes from zealous cultural converts. |
|
|
|
Bau
Lokahi
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2011 : 09:06:33 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Retro
quote:
Originally posted by Bau
IMO the mana of playing music of your own ancestral heritage is something that can not be duplicated realy by anyone not of that ancestry.
So - does that apply only to traditional Hawaiian chant then?
What about the songs that incorporate guitar, `ukulele, and other instrumentation that was NOT part of the Hawaiian ancestral heritage?
What about songs based on Christian hymns that were NOT part of the Hawaiian ancestral heritage?
What about songs that incorporated Western-style harmony & rhythms that were NOT part of the Hawaiian ancestral heritage (a style openly adopted by Nā Lani `Eha, in fact)?
quote:
Originally posted by Hookani
... if Michael Jackson's songs were translated to Hawaiian, is it now Hawaiian music?
If someone added Hawaiian words to an old Christian hymn, is it then Hawaiian music? Too late to stop THAT one.
It applys to all of it. If my great great uncle wrote a song or created some artwork, it is going to have something special to me that it won't have to someone else.
I love IZs music , it has a special unique connection for me personaly. But I never knew him and it is not going to be of the same quality as , say , the people who played music with him. but other people are not going to have my unique spiritual feelings about the music as I do either, because I my personal experiences.
Ukulele was not part of ancient hawaiian heritage, but it became part of the later heritage as they adopted it, same with the hymns. Its all part of the history.
Those first hawaiian musicians who created their own tunings we know now as slack key were the pinoneers of that. If someone in your family was part of that, it will have a special spirit of its own IMO
If it was taught to you and handed down through your family, it will have a different connection for you than say, someone who learns it through a songbook for example. different things have differnt meanings for differnet people.
The heritage of the music and culture matters IMO and should be respected.
Its like historical items and such, peoples family historys. Its a universal thing.
In the same token , those who are doing things their own way now, should be respected too for what it is. I guess things are what you wnat them to be or whatever labels you want to give them.
Everybody has got their own thing going on, and that is good IMO. I like diversity over division. |
|
|
|
Allen M Cary
Lokahi
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 01:25:28 AM
|
Hey, isn't Iz famous for that old Hawaiian chant-"Somewhere over the Rainbow....?"
Sorry, couldn't resist
me ke aloha,
Allen |
|
|
|
wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 01:31:36 AM
|
Iz also put together "Ahi Wela" and "Twinkle Little Star".
And "Take Me Home, West Makaha".
And he sang "Mona Lisa, Mona Lisa" (but not like our girls sing it...."Mona Lisa eat your pizza")
I am wondering, though, if those types of things done by Iz that attracted me to his music, as a bridge between "regular" music and an intro to Hawaiian music, perhaps led other people to Hawaiian music as well. And in that same way, couldn't that type of "bridge" introduce other people to a more in-depth love and study of Hawaiian music? |
Me ke aloha
Malama pono,
Wanda |
|
|
|
markwitz
`Olu`olu
USA
841 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 04:25:54 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
I am wondering, though, if those types of things done by Iz that attracted me to his music, as a bridge between "regular" music and an intro to Hawaiian music, perhaps led other people to Hawaiian music as well. And in that same way, couldn't that type of "bridge" introduce other people to a more in-depth love and study of Hawaiian music?
That was absolutely the case with Denise and me. We started listening to Iz and Hawaiian Style Band, but we also got Gabby's stuff and Keali'i Reichel's "Kawaipunahele" at the same time. Then basically it was off to the races, sampling lots of others.
Then I discovered Bill Wynne's original podcast of "Ho'olohe Hou" and for me, after that, things went to a different level of trying to learn about the music even more. |
"The music of the Hawaiians, the most fascinating in the world, is still in my ears and
haunts me sleeping and waking."
Mark Twain |
|
|
|
Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 08:07:12 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
... couldn't that type of "bridge" introduce other people to a more in-depth love and study of Hawaiian music?
And now we come full circle to Bill's point that started this thread - the unwillingness of many people to accept that Tia Carrere's Grammy-winning CD may yet serve that purpose for someone; and we may never know that it has done so. |
|
|
|
kuulei88
Akahai
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 09:12:55 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Retro
And now we come full circle to Bill's point that started this thread - the unwillingness of many people to accept that Tia Carrere's Grammy-winning CD may yet serve that purpose for someone; and we may never know that it has done so.
or the resounding unwillingness of many to even see that all of the Hawaiian-language lyrics on Tiaʻs CD are ORIGINAL, and that their HAWAIIAN manaʻo and even HAWAIIAN hula ku‘i songforms could be a bridge between Hawaiian tradition and melodies drawn from -- and paying homage to -- the inspired work of masterpieces in the European classical music tradition. Clearly there is SOMETHING going on when Iz singing "Over the Rainbow" in ENGLISH is so embraced, and Tia Carrere singing the newly-composed Hawaiian-language lyrics of <name of haku mele; well, any name will fit here, including Queen Liliʻuokalani whose lyrics to "Aloha ‘Oe" were newly-composed when she wrote that song yet took the refrain tune from Charles Conversesʻ "The Rock Beside The Sea"> is so soundly rejected, and repeatedly called into question by folks, however well-intentiond, who have obviously not even LOOKED at the lyrics before asking questions whose answers are, in fact, right even IN the lyrics.
Iʻm sorry, Tia and Daniel; you have both succeeded in maintaining your integrity. But, like Allan a few posts back, I could not resist the opportunity . . . to use the tongue-in-cheekness . . . but instead to bring this thread full circle back to Bill‘s honest and achingly heartfelt observations.
|
amy k |
|
|
|
thumbstruck
Ahonui
USA
2174 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 10:14:54 AM
|
Time will tell whether a song becomes a classic.
If you like it, listen to it. If not, don't. Remember that personal tastes are subject to change and knowledge and appreciation grow. |
|
|
|
Bau
Lokahi
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 2:04:25 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Retro
quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
... couldn't that type of "bridge" introduce other people to a more in-depth love and study of Hawaiian music?
And now we come full circle to Bill's point that started this thread - the unwillingness of many people to accept that Tia Carrere's Grammy-winning CD may yet serve that purpose for someone; and we may never know that it has done so.
Exactly. there should be enough aloha for everyone. For the kanaka maoli and the malihini, whether you are a beginner or a pro musician, or someone who just likes to listen. Everyone has their place and purpose, everyones personal expression matters too. no matter what type of instrument they use or how good they are, or how they choose to express themselves.
Mabee even the naysays have their place,the abrasive people, the blunt and critical - they get people to think.
If their (grammy winners) music gets more exposure and turns a new audience onto other hawaiian style music, like IZ did, that doesn't seem a bad thing. Good for all musicians involved for the genere to grow IMHO.
`A`ohe pau ka `ike i ka hâlau ho`okâhi.
(All knowledge is not taught in one school.)
seems a somewhat fitting quote from a page of sayings I like:
http://www.quotesquotations.com/famous/hawaiian-sayings-quotes.htm#ixzz1EvK1FW3q |
|
|
|
wcerto
Ahonui
USA
5052 Posts |
|
|
Retro
Ahonui
USA
2368 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 3:19:28 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by wcerto
That is from Kawena Pukui's `Olelo No`eau - Hawaiian Proverbs and Poetical Sayings. A must have book.
It certainly is - I found a nice copy in a used bookstore in Kailua not long ago. |
|
|
|
Russell Letson
`Olu`olu
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 08:23:26 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bau
Everyone has their place and purpose, everyones personal expression matters too. no matter what type of instrument they use or how good they are, or how they choose to express themselves.
Mabee even the naysays have their place,the abrasive people, the blunt and critical - they get people to think.
Reminded me of some Yankee wisdom:
. . . we reflected
If one by one we counted people out
For the least sin, it wouldn't take us long
To get so we had no one left to live with.
For to be social is to be forgiving.
Our thief, the one who does our stealing from us,
We don't cut off from coming to church suppers,
But what we miss we go to him and ask for.
He promptly gives it back, that is if still
Uneaten, unworn out, or undisposed of.
--from Robert Frost, "The Star-Splitter" |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
My Love Affair With Hawaiian Music Is Over
